Comparison of Coron Williams to CJ

[RChildress107]

In sports, there are guys that take adversity and losing and use them as fuel to make them better.

Travis is not one of those guys.

He doesn't let getting boxed out by a guy with lesser talent motivate him to get 20 rebounds. He is the guy who will assign blame as to why he was boxed and how it was not his fault...and probably pout about it for a while...and while he may not be Bz's biggest fan, letting his personal feelings about his coach affect his game is selfish. Winners want to win, and it doesn't matter who they play for. Travis wears "Wake Forest" on his chest, not "Jeff [Redacted]". He plays basketball for Wake Forest. Bz is simply a coach (not the most desirable coach, but it is what it is and this is fact is not changing). He could have transferred if the latter bothered him to the point of underperforming.

I am not condemning the kid, because this is who he is, but you can't blame his drop in numbers entirely on his coach. At some point, Travis has to take ownership of his opportunity and make the best of his senior year.

I think you and others are failing to recognize the different levels of adversity and losing. Every "winner" at some point will succumb to adversity and give up mentally if the conditions are bad enough. It's a different threshold for every player. The mental fatigue of losing badly night in and night out, playing for a coach who has no clue what he's doing/doesn't interact well with people, seeing all of your friends transfer, all adds up. I think the overwhelming majority of players in Travis's situation would react the same way.

That doesn't make it an excuse, and doesn't put all of the blame on his coach, but IMO it makes it pretty tough to get down on Travis for that.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Travis is not a very good ball player, when will everyone understand he got a free education at Wake Forest for being just average. He got a good deal if you ask me.

It depends on who you're comparing him to. If you're comparing Travis to Carter Cook, then Travis is an all-star. If you're comparing Travis to most of the players not in a power conference, Travis is also vastly above that average. If you're comparing him to the average power conference player, he's probably around average if not slightly above average.

He has been pretty solidly above the 100.0 offensive rating mark all four seasons he's been at Wake (the 100.0 offensive rating is average for all players) and despite not having a well-developed skill set at any one thing has managed to consistently get rebounds and get garbage points that a great team needs in a glue guy. Travis would start on almost each of the ACC schools IMO and he's got pretty good numbers both straight up and efficiency-wise his entire career.

You may not like his effort, you may not like his attitude, but you cannot argue with his results and his statistics.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

At this point of the season Travis' second best comparison on KenPom is to Ryan Kelly last year. That's not "average"

 

[RacerDeac]

I think you and others are failing to recognize the different levels of adversity and losing. Every "winner" at some point will succumb to adversity and give up mentally if the conditions are bad enough. It's a different threshold for every player. The mental fatigue of losing badly night in and night out, playing for a coach who has no clue what he's doing/doesn't interact well with people, seeing all of your friends transfer, all adds up. I think the overwhelming majority of players in Travis's situation would react the same way.

Agreed. Most players who experience this much losing at least do so with their teammates. Meanwhile, Travis is the ONLY holdover from the previous coaching staff and the ONLY member of his class. His time at Wake has been 4 of the worst years in Wake Forest basketball history under a coach who admits that he doesn't relate well with his players. There are few, if any, players of Travis' ability that would ever experience anything like that in college.

 

[TBR]

The thing about Travis is he's pretty much the exact same player he was from Day 1. That's a pretty big indictment of someone. Either him or the coaching staff.

Worth noting that his offensive rating at this point in the season is far and away the best it has been. Which pretty much indicates that the numbers don't mean much given the weakness of the schedule.

 

[RacerDeac]

Worth noting that his offensive rating at this point in the season is far and away the best it has been. Which pretty much indicates that the numbers don't mean much given the weakness of the schedule.

BUT CORON IS BETTER THAN CJ!!!!

 

[KVegasDeac]

I think you and others are failing to recognize the different levels of adversity and losing. Every "winner" at some point will succumb to adversity and give up mentally if the conditions are bad enough. It's a different threshold for every player. The mental fatigue of losing badly night in and night out, playing for a coach who has no clue what he's doing/doesn't interact well with people, seeing all of your friends transfer, all adds up. I think the overwhelming majority of players in Travis's situation would react the same way.

That doesn't make it an excuse, and doesn't put all of the blame on his coach, but IMO it makes it pretty tough to get down on Travis for that.

I'm not down on Travis at all, in fact, I hope he has an All ACC conference season...I'm simply saying that Travis chose to stay at Wake after meeting Bz, after playing a season for Bz, after winning on only 8 games. He could have left. I'm glad he stayed because he is a talented player who can (and hopefully will) make a huge difference on how this season plays out. BUT... IF he is playing with a negative "woe is me" attitude and IF he is not boxing out because he hates Bz and he is pouting, he needs to stop and hold himself accountable for his situation.

Nothing has been beyond his control. He is the senior. This is his team, and these are his minutes, his points, and his rebounds to lose.

 

[RChildress107]

I'm not down on Travis at all, in fact, I hope he has an All ACC conference season...I'm simply saying that Travis chose to stay at Wake after meeting Bz, after playing a season for Bz, after winning on only 8 games. He could have left. I'm glad he stayed because he is a talented player who can (and hopefully will) make a huge difference on how this season plays out. BUT... IF he is playing with a negative "woe is me" attitude and IF he is not boxing out because he hates Bz and he is pouting, he needs to stop and hold himself accountable for his situation.

Nothing has been beyond his control. He is the senior. This is his team, and these are his minutes, his points, and his rebounds to lose.

Would you? Would most players?

And as you stated earlier its pretty clear that's what he's doing. So you are down on Travis, or at least you blame him entirely for his lack of effort/failure to reach potential.

There is a difference between pouting because you don't like your coach or some other isolated incident and becoming apathetic because after 3 1/2 years of being in a horrible basketball situation you just decide its not worth it anymore.

 

[KVegasDeac]

Would you? Would most players?

And as you stated earlier its pretty clear that's what he's doing. So you are down on Travis, or at least you blame him entirely for his lack of effort/failure to reach potential.

There is a difference between pouting because you don't like your coach or some other isolated incident and becoming apathetic because after 3 1/2 years of being in a horrible basketball situation you just decide its not worth it anymore.

And that's okay because...????

There have been plenty of other players in the history of college basketball who have endured far worse situations than Travis, and there will be plenty more after. Why is his attitude okay? Because we all hate Bz?

Muggsy played on some pretty sucky Wake teams...signed on to play with Tacy, wound up playing for Staak and enduring an 8-21 season (that was miserable).

Again, I am not down on Travis. Everybody likes Travis. I just don't condone pouting and throwing away talent & a season because he might not like his coach.

 

[DCDeac]

In sports, there are guys that take adversity and losing and use them as fuel to make them better.

Travis is not one of those guys.

He doesn't let getting boxed out by a guy with lesser talent motivate him to get 20 rebounds. He is the guy who will assign blame as to why he was boxed and how it was not his fault...and probably pout about it for a while...and while he may not be Bz's biggest fan, letting his personal feelings about his coach affect his game is selfish. Winners want to win, and it doesn't matter who they play for. Travis wears "Wake Forest" on his chest, not "Jeff [Redacted]". He plays basketball for Wake Forest. Bz is simply a coach (not the most desirable coach, but it is what it is and this is fact is not changing). He could have transferred if the latter bothered him to the point of underperforming.

I am not condemning the kid, because this is who he is, but you can't blame his drop in numbers entirely on his coach. At some point, Travis has to take ownership of his opportunity and make the best of his senior year.

Excellent post.

Hope he gets his shit together. [Redacted] can only be blamed for so much. Travis is a senior and he has a lot to play for.

 

[RChildress107]

And that's okay because...????

There have been plenty of other players in the history of college basketball who have endured far worse situations than Travis, and there will be plenty more after. Why is his attitude okay? Because we all hate Bz?

Muggsy played on some pretty sucky Wake teams...signed on to play with Tacy, wound up playing for Staak and enduring an 8-21 season (that was miserable).

Again, I am not down on Travis. Everybody likes Travis. I just don't condone pouting and throwing away talent & a season because he might not like his coach.

As to the first bolded part I doubt it. At least not players rated where Travis was coming out of school.

As to Muggsy I am too young to have seen him play in college so I can't comment on his level of effort over the course of his two years under Staak. His situation is much more analogous to CJ who at least got to play on one good team in a role he was somewhat suited for. Also Staak's first two years were considerably better than Buzz's first two years.

Also (I'll say it again in the hopes it will register) pouting and apathy are two very different things.

 

[RChildress107]

Excellent post.

Hope he gets his shit together. [Redacted] can only be blamed for so much. Travis is a senior and he has a lot to play for.

Like what, exactly?

 

[RChildress107]

As to the first bolded part I doubt it. At least not players rated where Travis was coming out of school.

As to Muggsy I am too young to have seen him play in college so I can't comment on his level of effort over the course of his two years under Staak. His situation is much more analogous to CJ who at least got to play on one good team in a role he was somewhat suited for. Also Staak's first two years were considerably better than Buzz's first two years.

Also (I'll say it again in the hopes it will register) pouting and apathy are two very different things.

Just to show the difference in Muggsy's situation and Travis's here are the average SRS ratings of their four years (basketball-references rating system. A rating of 10 is roughly equivalent to a bubble team while a rating of 20 is roughly equivalent to a top 10-15 team).

Childress: 15.9

Muggsy: 8.2

Travis: 1.4

The difference between Travis's situation and Muggsy's is about the difference between Muggsy's and Childress's situation.


It really cannot be overstated how abysmal the Buzz era has been. Some people apparently still don't get it.

 

[KVegasDeac]

As to the first bolded part I doubt it. At least not players rated where Travis was coming out of school.

As to Muggsy I am too young to have seen him play in college so I can't comment on his level of effort over the course of his two years under Staak. His situation is much more analogous to CJ who at least got to play on one good team in a role he was somewhat suited for. Also Staak's first two years were considerably better than Buzz's first two years.

Also (I'll say it again in the hopes it will register) pouting and apathy are two very different things.

Travis is not apathetic. He pouts. If he were apathetic, he would not care and would therefore not pout.

As for no other player EVER having to endure a worse situation than Travis' (endure? I mean, he is getting a 65K education, hes's had no injuries)...we had a whole team of players who lost their coach to a sudden fatal heart attack... I would say that trumps anything Travis has gone through.

 

[KVegasDeac]

Just to show the difference in Muggsy's situation and Travis's here are the average SRS ratings of their four years (basketball-references rating system. A rating of 10 is roughly equivalent to a bubble team while a rating of 20 is roughly equivalent to a top 10-15 team).

Childress: 15.9

Muggsy: 8.2

Travis: 1.4

The difference between Travis's situation and Muggsy's is about the difference between Muggsy's and Childress's situation.


It really cannot be overstated how abysmal the Buzz era has been. Some people apparently still don't get it.

I get it. I've seen it before. The Staak era was horrible. I got to watch the home game shit show in Greensboro. Ralph Kitley was a starter...The only thing worth watching was Muggsy...and the ACC was not as strong then as it is now. There were no teams like dook- full of one-and-done superstars. The big difference? I cannot recall one player who gave up on the team.

We were awful. We had a freakin' med school walk-on as a starter. The rest of the league wore Nike...we wore Puma or Spot-Bilt (can't remember which, but they were ugly).

The Bz era is bad, but its not new territory for Wake Forest.

FWIW...I don't think Travis has given up. The point of my original post was that we could see Travis playing less minutes if he doesn't start playing to his capabilities.

 

[RChildress107]

Travis is not apathetic. He pouts. If he were apathetic, he would not care and would therefore not pout.

As for no other player EVER having to endure a worse situation than Travis' (endure? I mean, he is getting a 65K education, hes's had no injuries)...we had a whole team of players who lost their coach to a sudden fatal heart attack... I would say that trumps anything Travis has gone through.

Oh well that awesome circular argument settles it then.

I never said no other player EVER has had to endure a worse BASKETBALL situation than Travis. You said plenty and I said I doubt it. And I was referring to basketball situations. But hey if it helps you win an argument go ahead and bring that in, real classy.

 

[Wakegrad]

Travis would start at every other ACC school? That would mean Wake could compete with everyone again.

It depends on who you're comparing him to. If you're comparing Travis to Carter Cook, then Travis is an all-star. If you're comparing Travis to most of the players not in a power conference, Travis is also vastly above that average. If you're comparing him to the average power conference player, he's probably around average if not slightly above average.

He has been pretty solidly above the 100.0 offensive rating mark all four seasons he's been at Wake (the 100.0 offensive rating is average for all players) and despite not having a well-developed skill set at any one thing has managed to consistently get rebounds and get garbage points that a great team needs in a glue guy. Travis would start on almost each of the ACC schools IMO and he's got pretty good numbers both straight up and efficiency-wise his entire career.

You may not like his effort, you may not like his attitude, but you cannot argue with his results and his statistics.

 

[KVegasDeac]

Oh well that awesome circular argument settles it then.

I never said no other player EVER has had to endure a worse BASKETBALL situation than Travis. You said plenty and I said I doubt it. And I was referring to basketball situations. But hey if it helps you win an argument go ahead and bring that in, real classy.

That was a basketball situation and it is far worse than being coached by Bz. I don't understand how bringing up Skip's death is "real classy"? Ask any of the guys that went through that and they will tell you it was one of the roughest times of their life.

And I still stand by the notion that plenty of college basketball players have had to suffer through tough situations- maybe not exactly like Travis, but similar. Hell, probably every player that played for Bz at Colorado and Air Force can relate to Travis. His situation is not unique. I would say the USC basketball team has had a rough go of it over the course of the last 1 1/2 years. 3 coaches in a year, players ineligible, getting thumped by Wake...far worse than what Travis has dealt with.

Yeah, it HAD to suck to sign the LOI with Dino and wind up playing for Bz. Unfortunately, thats the business of college basketball. Happens all the time. Travis met Bz, could have requested a release but he didn't. He's stayed around for whatever reason. The whole deal is rotten and there is no denying that, but he is here by his own choice. If he has given up (and I don't think he has), I cannot sympathize with him or think that its okay.

 

[RChildress107]

I get it. I've seen it before. The Staak era was horrible. I got to watch the home game shit show in Greensboro. Ralph Kitley was a starter...The only thing worth watching was Muggsy...and the ACC was not as strong then as it is now. There were no teams like dook- full of one-and-done superstars. The big difference? I cannot recall one player who gave up on the team.

We were awful. We had a freakin' med school walk-on as a starter. The rest of the league wore Nike...we wore Puma or Spot-Bilt (can't remember which, but they were ugly).

The Bz era is bad, but its not new territory for Wake Forest.

FWIW...I don't think Travis has given up. The point of my original post was that we could see Travis playing less minutes if he doesn't start playing to his capabilities.

Statistically, yes it is new territory for Wake Forest. If the numbers were close I would trust your "eye-test" assessment since again I was too young for the Staak years. However, the numbers aren't close.

SRS average for Staak's 4 years: 4.7

SRS average for [Redacted]'s 3 1/2 years: 1.4 (For [Redacted] to reach Staak's average this year's team would have to finish roughly equivalent to the 94-95 team).

As to the ACC wasn't as strong argument: Wait there were no teams like Duke full of one and done superstars? In the late 80's? I thought they would be full of one and done superstars since one and done was a thing in the late 80's.

Duke this year has 1 "one and done" superstar.

Here are some of the players who were in the ACC during Staak's time:

Johnny Dawkins
Mark Price
Brad Daugherty
Kenny Smith
J.R. Reid
Horace Grant
Danny Ferry
Rick Fox
Len Bias
Rodney Monroe
Christian Laettner


And the # of tournament teams (out of 8) each of Staak's years:

6
6
5
6

vs. # of tourny teams (out of 12) in each of [Redacted]'s first three years

4
5
4



Yeah the ACC was weaker back then. GTFO

 

[RChildress107]

That was a basketball situation and it is far worse than being coached by Bz. I don't understand how bringing up Skip's death is "real classy"? Ask any of the guys that went through that and they will tell you it was one of the roughest times of their life.

And I still stand by the notion that plenty of college basketball players have had to suffer through tough situations- maybe not exactly like Travis, but similar. Hell, probably every player that played for Bz at Colorado and Air Force can relate to Travis. His situation is not unique. I would say the USC basketball team has had a rough go of it over the course of the last 1 1/2 years. 3 coaches in a year, players ineligible, getting thumped by Wake...far worse than what Travis has dealt with.

Yeah, it HAD to suck to sign the LOI with Dino and wind up playing for Bz. Unfortunately, thats the business of college basketball. Happens all the time. Travis met Bz, could have requested a release but he didn't. He's stayed around for whatever reason. The whole deal is rotten and there is no denying that, but he is here by his own choice. If he has given up (and I don't think he has), I cannot sympathize with him or think that its okay.

Just stop. Skip's death wasn't tragic because it changed the basketball situation for those guys and they would be the first to tell you that. Go ahead and find me plenty of top 100 players who committed to a top 25 program and have had to endure 3 1/2 years of losing while all of his recruiting class transferred.

I said it's "real classy" because I'm not going to compare Travis's situation with hundreds of situations where guys have had to deal with tragic or far more difficult stuff happening off the court. It's not the same. I'm not going to call his situation "a struggle" or "a battle" or anything like that because in the end it's just basketball. And I've said I don't feel sorry for him because at the end of the day it's trivial and you are dealt the hand you are dealt.

Thought that would have been obvious to everyone reading my posts that I wasn't attempting to compare the "adversity" of losing basketball games for 3 1/2 years with the real adversity of losing a coach and a mentor. Guess not.