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Comparison of Coron Williams to CJ

So I've only looked up stats for the small forwards at Clemson, NC State, UNC, Duke, and VT- sorry Travis would not start at any of those schools and since he is really between 6-5 and 6-6 no he wouldn't play power forward
 
Wakegrad said:
So I've only looked up stats for the small forwards at Clemson, NC State, UNC, Duke, and VT- sorry Travis would not start at any of those schools and since he is really between 6-5 and 6-6 no he wouldn't play power forward
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Without having to look up the stats he would definitely start at State (Warren would play PF), Clemson (They go 3 guards if I'm not mistaken but have no good forwards other than Mcdaniels), VT (He's probably on par with Eddie and Barksdale)

If he had played all four years at Carolina I would guess he'd be starting this year.

He would not start for Duke.

Nice try though
 
RChildress107 said:
Statistically, yes it is new territory for Wake Forest. If the numbers were close I would trust your "eye-test" assessment since again I was too young for the Staak years. However, the numbers aren't close.

SRS average for Staak's 4 years: 4.7

SRS average for [Redacted]'s 3 1/2 years: 1.4 (For [Redacted] to reach Staak's average this year's team would have to finish roughly equivalent to the 94-95 team).

As to the ACC wasn't as strong argument: Wait there were no teams like Duke full of one and done superstars? In the late 80's? I thought they would be full of one and done superstars since one and done was a thing in the late 80's.

Duke this year has 1 "one and done" superstar.

Here are some of the players who were in the ACC during Staak's time:

Johnny Dawkins
Mark Price
Brad Daugherty
Kenny Smith
J.R. Reid
Horace Grant
Danny Ferry
Rick Fox
Len Bias
Rodney Monroe
Christian Laettner


And the # of tournament teams (out of 8) each of Staak's years:

6
6
5
6

vs. # of tourny teams (out of 12) in each of [Redacted]'s first three years

4
5
4



Yeah the ACC was weaker back then. GTFO
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Unfortunately, I lived through and witnessed the Bob Staak years so I didn't refer to google to make my point not do I need stats and numbers to change my impression of watching Ralph Kitley and Tom Wise try to stop some of the guys you listed...and a hung over Bob Staak on the sidelines not even trying to coach. Those images are etched permanently in my mind. It was bad. It was very bad. In fact, it seemed hopeless.

So yeah, I will say that in my opinion- because I have witnessed both seasons- that the Staak years seemed far more hopeless and he games were more miserable than anything I have witnessed under Bz. We played in Greensboro, so not only did we have very little chance of winning, every time we played a "home" game vs dook, state, or unc it was more like a home game for them. If we played anyone else, it was empty. It sucked.

I do think the ACC is stronger now. Those were some great players you listed, but those guys are mostly dook, unc, and state guys- with the exception of Mark Price & Horace Grant...and you only listed 11 players (who weren't all there at the same time) out of the 80 or so that made up the ACC. The ACC was a better conference then, because there weren't so many teams and the coaches were characters (Valvano, Cremins, Dean, Lefty, etc) and the ACC basketball tourney was a local holiday, but talent wise- top to bottom, the ACC is much stronger now.

And maybe the Buzz error doesn't seem as horrible and hopeless to me because I have seen this before and I know that Bz will eventually get fired and the program will eventually recover. I don't know...but having a drunk on the sidelines coaching walk-on starters is as bad as Bz on the sidelines in his ugly ties.
 
KVegasDeac said:
Unfortunately, I lived through and witnessed the Bob Staak years so I didn't refer to google to make my point not do I need stats and numbers to change my impression of watching Ralph Kitley and Tom Wise try to stop some of the guys you listed...and a hung over Bob Staak on the sidelines not even trying to coach. Those images are etched permanently in my mind. It was bad. It was very bad. In fact, it seemed hopeless.

So yeah, I will say that in my opinion- because I have witnessed both seasons- that the Staak years seemed far more hopeless and he games were more miserable than anything I have witnessed under Bz. We played in Greensboro, so not only did we have very little chance of winning, every time we played a "home" game vs dook, state, or unc it was more like a home game for them. If we played anyone else, it was empty. It sucked.

I do think the ACC is stronger now. Those were some great players you listed, but those guys are mostly dook, unc, and state guys- with the exception of Mark Price & Horace Grant...and you only listed 11 players (who weren't all there at the same time) out of the 80 or so that made up the ACC. The ACC was a better conference then, because there weren't so many teams and the coaches were characters (Valvano, Cremins, Dean, Lefty, etc) and the ACC basketball tourney was a local holiday, but talent wise- top to bottom, the ACC is much stronger now.

And maybe the Buzz error doesn't seem as horrible and hopeless to me because I have seen this before and I know that Bz will eventually get fired and the program will eventually recover. I don't know...but having a drunk on the sidelines coaching walk-on starters is as bad as Bz on the sidelines in his ugly ties.
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Like I said the numbers don't back you up. I'll grant that there are things that factor into "hopelessness" that go far beyond the performance on the court. But the performance on the court was better under Staak by pretty much any measure. I for one hope that the next 8 years are at least as good as Odom's first 8 years.

As to the talent level of the ACC top to bottom it was better during Staak's era and it's not even close. Sorry I only listed 11 guys I was pulling names off the top of my head for guys I was too young to see in person but have heard about growing up as a basketball fan.

Try naming 11 guys who would make that list from the past 4 years:

Parker
Barnes
Henson
Zeller
Smith
Singler
Shumpert
Larkin?
Leslie?
Plumlee?
Len?

Really? That's better than the 11 I listed?
 
Not going to even argue about the ACC then vs. the ACC now...I know what I saw, and I know how much the game has changed since the late 80's, so I am pretty confident that today's ACC is a tougher league. There are no numbers or stats to back me up and to be honest, I don't really care about it enough to even bother looking it up. Trust me, the game is much more athletic and ten times faster today. Athletes are better conditioned, better prepared, have been coached longer. It is very different.

So you win. Not sure what you win...maybe I can mail you a big bottle of my Metamucil or some of my Efferdent denture cream...staples in the medicine cabinet of every old person.
 
KVegasDeac said:
Not going to even argue about the ACC then vs. the ACC now...I know what I saw, and I know how much the game has changed since the late 80's, so I am pretty confident that today's ACC is a tougher league. There are no numbers or stats to back me up and to be honest, I don't really care about it enough to even bother looking it up. Trust me, the game is much more athletic and ten times faster today. Athletes are better conditioned, better prepared, have been coached longer. It is very different.

So you win. Not sure what you win...maybe I can mail you a big bottle of my Metamucil or some of my Efferdent denture cream...staples in the medicine cabinet of every old person.
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No shit sherlock. pretty sure that Staak's teams aren't playing against this era and [Redacted]'s teams aren't playing against that era though.

That's like saying this year's Bobcats would beat Mikan's Lakers. Probably true but doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the competition in each era.
 
The ACC back in the late 80s was much stronger vs the rest of the nation relative how strong the ACC now is. That isn't even an argument worth having, IMO.
 
RChildress107 said:
Without having to look up the stats he would definitely start at State (Warren would play PF), Clemson (They go 3 guards if I'm not mistaken but have no good forwards other than Mcdaniels), VT (He's probably on par with Eddie and Barksdale)

If he had played all four years at Carolina I would guess he'd be starting this year.

He would not start for Duke.

Nice try though
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Eddie is way better then Travis.
 
RChildress107 said:
No shit sherlock. pretty sure that Staak's teams aren't playing against this era and [Redacted]'s teams aren't playing against that era though.

That's like saying this year's Bobcats would beat Mikan's Lakers. Probably true but doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the competition in each era.
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Again...Where might I mail the Metamucil or Efferdent, Watson? Or maybe a Xanax would work for you?

I know I've been drinking heavily, so I am not even sure what I am debating with you.
 
deacvision7 said:
The ACC back in the late 80s was much stronger vs the rest of the nation relative how strong the ACC now is. That isn't even an argument worth having, IMO.
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Bob Staak still sucked.

It might be safe to say that Wake Forest has employed worst two coaches in the history of college basketball.
 
KVegasDeac said:
Bob Staak still sucked.

It might be safe to say that Wake Forest has employed worst two coaches in the history of college basketball.
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Oh, I wouldn't disagree with either of those points at all.
 
Obviously the Bogues comparison is not a 100% match. Bogues was on the 1984 final 8 team, primarily on the bench (CJ played significant minutes as a frosh, so not quite the same there either), so he was a part of it but not a big contributor. Then in 1985 we had an OK team, after a good start, then the near crushing of Warren Martin's head technical to rob us of the ACCT upset of NC, we did limp into the NIT. Then Danny Green declares for the NBA as a soph, Thomas flunks out at some point (fall of the 86 season?) and the coach that recruited you quits in the summer making it near impossible to make a great hire.

So I'd certainly give you that Bogues was not beaten down, but he couldn't feel really great with the direction everything was going. Junior year we go 0-14 in the ACC. Senior season we go 2-14 with our wins against 0-14 MD. So say what you want, Bogues Jr. and Sr. seasons were pretty pathetic.

You can't take the 4 years of Staak and compare them to the 3 years of Buzz for Travis, you need to compare Staaks 1st two years to Buzz's first 3+. Bogues 4yrs are evened out by the 84 team.

For this next part, just remember Bogues had no help on his last two teams. A great PG with no one to pass the ball to.

Single season assists 1,2, and 4
Career Assists 781, no one else is over 600
Single game assist record 17, twice
28 10 assist games, next most 7

Add to that
1st all-time steals
Most steals in a season 1,2 and 5
Most steals in a game 8 three times

Three 20-10 games

1st team All-ACC in Senior year
#12 pick in the NBA draft.

And then to top off those last two pathetic seasons, he almost single handily took us the the ACC Finals in his Senior season if not for the double foul call against NC State in the 2OT semifinal game.

Bogues had zero hope of any postseason play in his last two seasons, yet he improved each year and was one of the top 5 players in the ACC in his senior season.

If anything Bogues should inspire Travis to develop his game in spite of his circumstances. Bogues graduates to a career in the NBA. Travis will enjoy kicking around basketball hotspots like Israel, Turkey and Russia.

And while it's a game of what ifs. Bogues did everything he could to help his teams win, but they were never close to going anywhere. It certainly could be argued that had Travis elevated his game a little last year a few of those close games might have gone our way, and he might have had a shot at the NIT. This year at a minimum, if he steps up, he could at least have a winning season with a shot at postseason play.

So say what you want but their situations are similar but it's about what's in their heads and heart that make them miles apart.
 
Tobacco Road said:
He does lots of stuff that doesn't show up in the box score.
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Apparently he does lots of things you don't notice by watching the games either. So every team in the ACC would rearrange their lineups to get him in?? Doubt it, and no he is not on par with Eddie
 
Travis is to Buzz as Sam Ivy was to Staak, only without the mysterious illness.
 
Travis has had a much better career than Eddie, although senior Eddie may turn out to be better than Travis.

Travis has not improved, but he has to be one of the most consistent players in Wake history. Not exactly skilled, but during his first 3 years you expected and got 12 and 6 every game. He is what he is, I do think he is undervalued now.
 
I wish more of the players would have quit on Buzz.
 
Deac83 said:
Obviously the Bogues comparison is not a 100% match. Bogues was on the 1984 final 8 team, primarily on the bench (CJ played significant minutes as a frosh, so not quite the same there either), so he was a part of it but not a big contributor. Then in 1985 we had an OK team, after a good start, then the near crushing of Warren Martin's head technical to rob us of the ACCT upset of NC, we did limp into the NIT. Then Danny Green declares for the NBA as a soph, Thomas flunks out at some point (fall of the 86 season?) and the coach that recruited you quits in the summer making it near impossible to make a great hire.

So I'd certainly give you that Bogues was not beaten down, but he couldn't feel really great with the direction everything was going. Junior year we go 0-14 in the ACC. Senior season we go 2-14 with our wins against 0-14 MD. So say what you want, Bogues Jr. and Sr. seasons were pretty pathetic.

You can't take the 4 years of Staak and compare them to the 3 years of Buzz for Travis, you need to compare Staaks 1st two years to Buzz's first 3+. Bogues 4yrs are evened out by the 84 team.

For this next part, just remember Bogues had no help on his last two teams. A great PG with no one to pass the ball to.

Single season assists 1,2, and 4
Career Assists 781, no one else is over 600
Single game assist record 17, twice
28 10 assist games, next most 7

Add to that
1st all-time steals
Most steals in a season 1,2 and 5
Most steals in a game 8 three times

Three 20-10 games

1st team All-ACC in Senior year
#12 pick in the NBA draft.

And then to top off those last two pathetic seasons, he almost single handily took us the the ACC Finals in his Senior season if not for the double foul call against NC State in the 2OT semifinal game.

Bogues had zero hope of any postseason play in his last two seasons, yet he improved each year and was one of the top 5 players in the ACC in his senior season.

If anything Bogues should inspire Travis to develop his game in spite of his circumstances. Bogues graduates to a career in the NBA. Travis will enjoy kicking around basketball hotspots like Israel, Turkey and Russia.

And while it's a game of what ifs. Bogues did everything he could to help his teams win, but they were never close to going anywhere. It certainly could be argued that had Travis elevated his game a little last year a few of those close games might have gone our way, and he might have had a shot at the NIT. This year at a minimum, if he steps up, he could at least have a winning season with a shot at postseason play.

So say what you want but their situations are similar but it's about what's in their heads and heart that make them miles apart.
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So Travis sucks and is a pouter because he's not Muggsy Bogues, one of the best examples of overcoming adversity (his size) to make the NBA?

Also say what you want but their situations were not similar. In addition to all the differences that you and I mentioned, Bogues had a lot more to play for his last two years than Travis has. He was on the U.S. National Team (after his junior year) and knew his career was headed to the NBA after college (he ended up going in the lottery). Travis's ceiling was never that high.
 
Clearly Travis is not Bogues in many ways. At the same time who knows what Travis could have become if he worked as hard as Bogues did.

And saying that Travis has nothing to play for, unless he's giving up basketball, I'm sure there are better locations in the world to play basketball based on your college performance.

For whatever reason Travis' game has not developed. Say what you want Travis has a lot of responsibility for that.
 
Deac83 said:
Clearly Travis is not Bogues in many ways. At the same time who knows what Travis could have become if he worked as hard as Bogues did.

And saying that Travis has nothing to play for, unless he's giving up basketball, I'm sure there are better locations in the world to play basketball based on your college performance.

For whatever reason Travis' game has not developed. Say what you want Travis has a lot of responsibility for that.
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If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Ability to work hard is just as much a skill as leaping ability or shooting ability. Few in history matched Muggsy in that area.

Of course Travis has a lot of responsibility for that. But given his situation that responsibility is to himself, not to us.

Ultimately the responsibility to get a player to maximize his potential for the sake of the team or the program (or to go a different direction if he doesn't) is on the coach. Our coach has not lived up to that responsibility.
 
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