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Culture Change?

myDeaconmyhand said:
Check your context, dingus. If you're not making a terrible comparison, use a fitting analogy. You know, I murdered that hamburger, like the Nazis murdered the jews.
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I am not sure that you meant to call me a "dingus" as either means that you don't recall my name (which is available to you. It is a contraction of one of my favorite quotes) or that you find me amusing (and I believe that you don't). I suggest that you meant "dingleberry", which is to call me a piece of turd (popularized, I believe, during War War II when front line troops lacked sanitation facilities).

To clarify, "Calling somone a dingus is not a personal insult, while it is to call one a dingleberry".

Assuming I offended you, I over you the following: "Blacksmiths who failed to adapt to the cultural change brought about the widespread introduction of automobiles, went out of business". Hopefully, your family fortune was not destroyed by a recalcitrant blacksmith.

I will not dignified your historically weak Holocaust comment with further comment, but suggest the book "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder as one of the most recent comprehensive and respectful book on the topic.
 
You're being intentionally obtuse. The idea that a cultural change was needed is a personal insult to each of the players and coaches from the previous "culture", because the Wake basketball program had not been passed over by any wide sweeping technological or humanitarian shift in college athletics. Any change prescribed by Wellman, was due to a personal dissatisfaction of his with individual members of the previous regime, and therefore his "cultural change" rhetoric does not accurately follow the traditional meaning of the word.
 
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Winkathomelygirl said:
I am not sure that you meant to call me a "dingus" as either means that you don't recall my name (which is available to you. It is a contraction of one of my favorite quotes) or that you find me amusing (and I believe that you don't). I suggest that you meant "dingleberry", which is to call me a piece of turd (popularized, I believe, during War War II when front line troops lacked sanitation facilities).

To clarify, "Calling somone a dingus is not a personal insult, while it is to call one a dingleberry".

Assuming I offended you, I over you the following: "Blacksmiths who failed to adapt to the cultural change brought about the widespread introduction of automobiles, went out of business". Hopefully, your family fortune was not destroyed by a recalcitrant blacksmith.

I will not dignified your historically weak Holocaust comment with further comment, but suggest the book "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder as one of the most recent comprehensive and respectful book on the topic.
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This post is what happens when rjkarl and Kanhoji have a lovechild post. Yeesh.
 
Winkathomelygirl said:
May we take this as the conclusion to your original well articulated post? And, if so, may we assume that preferred the Dino culture to the Jeff culture?

Were our comments, however articulated and however passionate, useful to you as a younger fan?
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Absolutely.

Unfortunately, judging by the other thread I started about the students it doesn't appear that we have any basketball culture at Wake Forest. That is really sad.
 
hate to be sarcastic, but the only culture change I see is establishing a culture of losing and non-competitiveness and non-pride in your school and non-rebounding and non-defense and non-attendance. Screw culture if that's what it means.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
You're being intentionally obtuse. The idea that a cultural change was needed is a personal insult to each of the players and coaches from the previous "culture", because the Wake basketball program had not been passed over by any wide sweeping technological or humanitarian shift in college athletics. Any change prescribed by Wellman, was due to a personal dissatisfaction of his with individual members of the previous regime, and therefore his "cultural change" rhetoric does not accurately follow the traditional meaning of the word.
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Wink's rep is for being verbose and intentionally dense. While this is a good fit for the current "culture" of Wake basketball, it gets tiresome on the board. Her response to my post started this exchange. I decided it wasn't worth my time. That said, I'm glad you did and I admire your tenacity. The above response was game, set, and match for this extended exchange. BRAVO! :thumbsup:
 
91deac said:
Dino was fired because RW wanted to change the culture (kids with 5 star hearts who would stay 4 years and represent Wake well) and Dino thought you needed NBA talent to win in ACC (JJ, Teague, Aminu). The lack of post season success was the excuse he used publicly.
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This is mostly true, it seems to me, but is a little black and white.

I think Ron and Bzd still think you need NBA talent to win the ACC and compete for a national championship, but you can do that with Big E, Josh Howard, Songaila, and of course CP3 types.

I think what happened was this:

* Skip went after NBA talent, but he started off going after the Big Es, CP3s, etc... and Skip was just a fantastic mentor/teacher.

* Skip then went after a guy he was sure were going to leave early maybe even after one year: Oden - a good kid he told himself, even if he may not be a committed student-athlete (maybe he would be). Conley came from a good family and nobody would have known out of the box he was going to be a one and doner, or even a 2-year player. Going after Daquen Cook maybe started a bit of a slide, but Skip probably told himself, I can be a mentor/father to Cook and Oden ...

* Teague and Johnson happen and Skip fully commits to NBA talent that may or may not be student athletes

* Walker, Woods, and Aminu happen, and the commitment to talent over student athletes maybe continues.

* Skip dies and all of our NBA talent lose much more than their basketball coach. They lose the one guy that will connect them to learning at the university level.

* Dino takes over and he's just not the same type of mentor.

* Dino takes a flyer on Ari (and CJ, a great local get in hindsight)

* Wellman sees Butler win with a team more in line with Skips Big E, CP3, Gray team or Howard, Songaila team, and he starts to question the direction of the program, student-athlete wise

* Wellman probably realizes that several players and to name one name, Ari, are likely very unprepared for the Wake Forest curriculum.

* Wellman tells Dino he's got to change; Dino says fuck no, I need horses and Wellman realizes Dino doesn't get it that you can get horses that will thrive or at least survive in the Wake Forest environment. Cans Dino

* Tabb and JTT enter along with Travis, Tony, and Carson and it becomes clear that Tabb has more problems than Ari. Woods happens, Walker is sucked into the black hole that is Tabb and bzd is left with a team that wins 8 games

* At the end of which, only Walker really survives to graduate (??). Our commitment to Walker may be partly due to the shit storm he has had to endure. If Walker graduates, he should get a standing ovation. Truly. He's matured, but I really would have liked to see what he could have done with Skip as his mentor.

But anyway, there's your culture change. Dino just didn't understand the difference between say Big E and Ari, or even Aminu and Ari - leaving aside whether he could coach or not.

As frustrating as this season (at times) and last season have been, just remember, it is not our future NBA power forward turning the ball over and over as he leads fast breaks, it's our point guard, who will likely become a back up next year. In an odd way, I am more content watching a struggling point guard turn the ball over on a fast break than a unique talent who shouldn't be leading a fast break to start with, considering HIS point guard is in the NBA too.
 
It is hard to find fault with Jaybone's scenario. IMO, Dino was not fired for one simple single event. It was a culmination of issues and a final impetus that resulted in the decision to terminate. The underlying factors included poor post-season results his last two years and not being personally and philosophically in tune with his boss. The catalysis for change was RW directing Dino to change recruiting focus away from highly rated players who might leave after a year or two and to go after more traditional “student-athletes” who might stick around for three or four years and thrive with an emphasis on experience and team play.

RW saw that model in a few programs he scouted for the NCAA committee and decided that’s what he wanted at Wake. Dino objected and felt that to compete for championships he needed the freedom to recruit whomever he felt was appropriate, including the top talent.

In a power struggle with a boss who is not solidly in your corner, the subordinate is not likely to survive. However, a HC who capitulates to directives limiting his ability to compete as he sees fit is not going to be successful either.
 
Dino and RW were like oil and water ... in so many ways. Neither was comfortable with the other. The contract extension was clearly for show so other coaches couldnt use it to suggest to HS juniors that the WF coach who is recruiting them wont be around for their full time at Wake.

However, I firmly believe that the decision to terminate Dino was made and the trigger pulled very quickly once the recruiting issue arose. This opinion is reinforced by RW congratulating Dino after the Texas game and telling him that he was pleased with the job he was doing. Maybe it was the Sicilian Kiss of Death.
 
The "culture change" crap is revisionist BS as interpreted by most. The only "culture change" was to not pursue one-and-done talent. It had nothing to do with character issues per se. A series of issues arose (all distinct in very important ways) that were made public to varying degrees. The entire truth is still not known about a few of them. Please do not be naive enough to believe that there have not been similar situations over the years ... they just were not made public. We are only aware of what "the powers that be" want to let us know.

JJ was a poster boy for the change RW wanted. JJ was clear that he was here to play basketball for one or two years, and school was not a focus for him. Ari was over his head academically. RW did not want Wake to recruit either type of player. BTW, both are really good guys. Tabb is another case entirely.
 
Probably most importantly, if we had been successful in the post-season (ACC and/or NCAA) none of this would have ever happened. I love Wake Forest. It is great to believe that we are special and hold ourselves to a higher standard (and I believe we do and am proud of it). There have been no allegations of cheating or NCAA violations. However, do not think for one minute that if we had won an ACC title or advanced to a Final Four that any of these "culture changes" would have ever seen the light of day.

Finally, we have no idea what transpired in the coaching search. If anyone other than RW himself tells you otherwise, cast a jaundiced eye in his or her direction. I just cant believe it turned out the way RW envisioned.
 
Me neither. If I had to guess, Wellman probably had Tubby as a fall back, and went after a top two or three who turned him down. Then Tubby decided to stay in Minnesota (???) - which was a shocker because Tubby's son had just exhausted his eligibility and I think Wellman thought he could sell him without too much trouble on moving back down South where he had coached for much of the last twenty years and where he could go toe to toe with coaching legends, which Tubby was or nearly almost was himself ...

I don't think Wellman thought Tubby would be happy coaching in the boonies during the twilight of his career.
 
Wow, what a disaster. RW shouldn't be telling his coaches to not recruit certain players unless there are character issues that the coach is looking over...
 
Tubby is where he needs to be. He teaches the textbook Big 10 grind it out style. Although his seat is getting hot there.

Saul's last year at UK was 2001. Not sure what you meant there, Bone. Also, Saul couldn't be on Tubby's staff at Wake so that wasn't ever going to happen.
 
Doesn't he have another son that walked on at Minnesota? I think he graduated two or three years ago ...
 
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