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Culture Change?

Wow. If James Johnson is the poster child of who Wellman doesn't want at Wake, we can kiss goodbye having a good hoops program as long as he's AD. I really loved JJ. He was an example of a guy who worked hard and really improved over his 2 years here to get his game NBA ready. As long as they're going to class and staying academically eligible, I have no problems with the JJs, CP3s and Teagues of the world. You don't want that to be the entire focus of your recruiting, but it's extremely difficult to stay competitive in a power conference when you have no pro talent.
 
In a few years, the only Deacs in the NBA will be guys who left early.

JJ worked hard to be academically eligible at Wake, apparently stayed academically eligible while at Wake, and left in good standing at Wake, and would probably be welcome back to finish his degree.


What's wrong with that? JJ could have gone to pretty much any school that doesn't care about athletes going to class. He didn't. He came to Wake.
 
Yeah Ph, this is really problematic as long as Wellman remains AD. Say he fires Bz after this year or next. Then tells all his potential interviewees that they can't recruit 1-2 and dones, but he still expects the potential coach to keep us competitive in the ACC. Whether it's Mooney, Smart, Hurley, Groce or Paulsen, they're all gonna tell Wellman to eff off.
 
Everyone makes excuses for the talent level this year, but all of these guys are 5 star heart guys - except for maybe walker. The real question is has RW learned his lesson about how competitive a team full of '5 star heart' players can be in the ACC.
 
cville deac said:
Yeah Ph, this is really problematic as long as Wellman remains AD. Say he fires Bz after this year or next. Then tells all his potential interviewees that they can't recruit 1-2 and dones, but he still expects the potential coach to keep us competitive in the ACC. Whether it's Mooney, Smart, Hurley, Groce or Paulsen, they're all gonna tell Wellman to eff off.
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Assuming Wellman actually talked to someone besides Bzz during the last hire, I suspect that may be what happened then as well.
 
cville deac said:
Wow. If James Johnson is the poster child of who Wellman doesn't want at Wake, we can kiss goodbye having a good hoops program as long as he's AD. I really loved JJ. He was an example of a guy who worked hard and really improved over his 2 years here to get his game NBA ready. As long as they're going to class and staying academically eligible, I have no problems with the JJs, CP3s and Teagues of the world. You don't want that to be the entire focus of your recruiting, but it's extremely difficult to stay competitive in a power conference when you have no pro talent.
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I think it is hilarious that people are so comfortable talking out both sides of their mouths. With the class we have coming in, obviously potential NBA talent (athleticism) is still a secondary focus.

You are talking a staff who tabled Tyler Lewis, arguably a nice college talent to pursue CMM, who has NBA talent/athleticism, so don't jump down that rabbit hole without thinking it through first.

Or just go ahead and craft that tableau ignoring facts, reality, etc...

Wellman didn't want a collection of Aris, Teagues and Woods, basically. He wanted big Es and CP3s. It's worth pointing out that CMM is at Hargrave, a school we have had a fantastic link to that has included players currently in the NBA.

It is about getting kids in here that can handle the Wake Forest social and academic environment. We didn't do very well at under Dino's stewardship and I think most would consider James Johnson a success story (recruited under Skip).

The guys Dino brought in were all over the map maturity and academic-wise. It's all right there. Doesn't mean Wellman wants Bzd to go out and get a team full of Cal Boyds. All you have to do is look at next year's class to see that. Come on.
 
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I inferred from babydeac75's posts that Johnson is the poster boy HERE or in some circles for the change RW wanted. NOT RW's poster boy.

Yes, the idea is that you want kids who want a Wake degree - at some point - a la CP3 and Josh Howard and Big E, etc...

James Johnson was no different than Chris Ellis, really. It's just Chris Ellis did not have NBA talent. That said, if memory serves, Johnson dropped out of classes like days after we lost to Cleveland State loss. He essentially never came back to school after that while Teague stayed in class for the rest of the semester, or at least for a few weeks ...
 
jaybone said:
This is mostly true, it seems to me, but is a little black and white.

I think Ron and Bzd still think you need NBA talent to win the ACC and compete for a national championship, but you can do that with Big E, Josh Howard, Songaila, and of course CP3 types.

I think what happened was this:

* Skip went after NBA talent, but he started off going after the Big Es, CP3s, etc... and Skip was just a fantastic mentor/teacher.

* Skip then went after a guy he was sure were going to leave early maybe even after one year: Oden - a good kid he told himself, even if he may not be a committed student-athlete (maybe he would be). Conley came from a good family and nobody would have known out of the box he was going to be a one and doner, or even a 2-year player. Going after Daquen Cook maybe started a bit of a slide, but Skip probably told himself, I can be a mentor/father to Cook and Oden ...

* Teague and Johnson happen and Skip fully commits to NBA talent that may or may not be student athletes

* Walker, Woods, and Aminu happen, and the commitment to talent over student athletes maybe continues.

* Skip dies and all of our NBA talent lose much more than their basketball coach. They lose the one guy that will connect them to learning at the university level.

* Dino takes over and he's just not the same type of mentor.

* Dino takes a flyer on Ari (and CJ, a great local get in hindsight)

* Wellman sees Butler win with a team more in line with Skips Big E, CP3, Gray team or Howard, Songaila team, and he starts to question the direction of the program, student-athlete wise

* Wellman probably realizes that several players and to name one name, Ari, are likely very unprepared for the Wake Forest curriculum.

* Wellman tells Dino he's got to change; Dino says fuck no, I need horses and Wellman realizes Dino doesn't get it that you can get horses that will thrive or at least survive in the Wake Forest environment. Cans Dino

* Tabb and JTT enter along with Travis, Tony, and Carson and it becomes clear that Tabb has more problems than Ari. Woods happens, Walker is sucked into the black hole that is Tabb and bzd is left with a team that wins 8 games

* At the end of which, only Walker really survives to graduate (??). Our commitment to Walker may be partly due to the shit storm he has had to endure. If Walker graduates, he should get a standing ovation. Truly. He's matured, but I really would have liked to see what he could have done with Skip as his mentor.

But anyway, there's your culture change. Dino just didn't understand the difference between say Big E and Ari, or even Aminu and Ari - leaving aside whether he could coach or not.

As frustrating as this season (at times) and last season have been, just remember, it is not our future NBA power forward turning the ball over and over as he leads fast breaks, it's our point guard, who will likely become a back up next year. In an odd way, I am more content watching a struggling point guard turn the ball over on a fast break than a unique talent who shouldn't be leading a fast break to start with, considering HIS point guard is in the NBA too.
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Very well done logical analysis. Following it another step or two, were there any personal issues with Dino that caused Ron to go in such a radically different direction with Jeff. I ask because most terminations are based as much on personal issues as on professional ones.
 
To take off from bone's post, let's start a list, based on the last 10 year or so of history to help define RW's new culture. (not saying I agree with it, just trying to better define what it might look like.)

RW culture change = the best player that can be:

great representatives of Wake;
academic skills to succeed at Wake; and
high character.

No trouble-makers off the court, one-and-dones or guys majoring in pre-nba.


Tim Duncan - In
not a 5 star out of HS, developed into AA at Wake

Big E - In
McD AA, always seemed to be a 3 or 4 year guy.

CP3's - In
McD AA, but talked about staying as long as Skip would give him a scholarship. He blew up / developed into a lottery pick while playing at Wake.

JJ - Out
Majoring in pre-nba.

Teague - Probably In
really developed into a lottery pick at Wake.

Josh Howard - ???
I loved Josh, but he had a huge attitude on the court. Not sure where he would fit in the new culture.

Aminu - Probably Out
Projected top 5 pick. Not majoring in pre-NBA, but not likely to be around 3 or 4 years. Focus on education may have made him an IN.

Ari - Out
From other postings, seemed like he could not handle the academic load.

JTT - Out
May have slipped through, but clearly a knot-head under JG's definition

Walker - Out
May have slipped through, but also a knot-head under JG's definition

Tabb - Out
May have slipped through, but also a knot-head under JG's definition
 
jaybone said:
I think it is hilarious that people are so comfortable talking out both sides of their mouths. With the class we have coming in, obviously potential NBA talent (athleticism) is still a secondary focus.

You are talking a staff who tabled Tyler Lewis, arguably a nice college talent to pursue CMM, who has NBA talent/athleticism, so don't jump down that rabbit hole without thinking it through first.

Or just go ahead and craft that tableau ignoring facts, reality, etc...

Wellman didn't want a collection of Aris, Teagues and Woods, basically. He wanted big Es and CP3s. It's worth pointing out that CMM is at Hargrave, a school we have had a fantastic link to that has included players currently in the NBA.

It is about getting kids in here that can handle the Wake Forest social and academic environment. We didn't do very well at under Dino's stewardship and I think most would consider James Johnson a success story (recruited under Skip).

The guys Dino brought in were all over the map maturity and academic-wise. It's all right there. Doesn't mean Wellman wants Bzd to go out and get a team full of Cal Boyds. All you have to do is look at next year's class to see that. Come on.
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First, you're taking liberties with your inferences from Baby's post. Second, there is a big difference with the incoming recruiting class and Teague, AFA, JJ and CP3. The incoming class has 2 guys in the #75-100 range and 4 guys in the #100-200 range. None of the guys in the incoming class are good bets to be NBA players, much less 1-2 and dones. I look forward to watching CMM, but he's still the #15 PG whose weaknesses, according to Scout, are quickness and 3 point range. Latter top-100 guys and 3*s are just not guys with "obviously potential NBA talent".

Contrast that with the aforementioned big names. CP3 and AFA were burger boys, and JJ and Teague were top-50. There was a much higher probability that those guys would end up in the NBA or leave early than any of our guys coming in next year. AFA obviously so. CP3 blew up as a HS junior and senior and was drawing serious interest from UNC when he committed to us. JJ and Teague were highly ranked guys who wanted to leave early and whose games progressed to enable them to do that by the end of their 2nd years. (I don't include Big E in the comparison because he had certain body type and gravity limitations for NBA consideration.) You just cannot equate next year's class with the type of talent these other guys had. And if Baby's take on the situation is correct, then all these guys are potential guys that Wellman would now want his coaches to shy away from recruiting.

And there is also a world of difference between next year's class and the Cal Boyds of the world. First of all, Cal was a way better player than anyone in our current freshman class. Second, just like there is a big difference between next year's class and CP3, AFA, JJ and Teague, there is also a big difference between next year's class and the current freshman. Unless you were reading anything about the current freshmen with black and gold blinders, you knew that we were only likely getting a spot up shooter and 2 extreme projects out of this class. Next year, I'm excited by guys like CMM, Moto and Rountree, and all 6 sound like they have at least some long term potential. But none of those guys project at this point to set the ACC world on fire their 1st year and start thinking about the NBA.

So to sum up for you, there's the CP3/AFA group, then a big gap, then next year's class, then a gap, then Cal Boyd, then a big gap and finally this year's class. And FWIW, I agree with Wellman (or Baby's interpretation of Wellman) that we shouldn't be taking a guy like Ari where it's obvious the kid would be in over his head academically or an obvious behavior problem like Tabb.
 
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If you look at that list there is a pretty good defining line, after CP3 the recruiting is much more suspect in terms of character. Skip had two horrible years at Wake then we wind up with some players, while talented, that have questionable backgrounds or character.

I remember when Skip first arrived at Wake and the media picked us to finish at the bottom of the ACC, Skip said 'I've never finished lower than 5th'. Or something like that.

So those two years at the bottom of the ACC must have impacted his view of recruiting.

Woods - ? missing from the list.

Howards problem at Wake I think was more of his dislike of Odom. Also, never heard of any major off court issues. Attitude on court, yes (the infamous 'he's a cancer to our team' by poster that are on this board today), but once he harness that attitude for good, problems went away.

Teague- pouting, being a brat on the court when he wasn't getting the ball. Not sure you could figure that out while being recruited, but certainly not what you are looking for on your team. Add in his involvement in the 'sex scandal' and not really a character kid.

Clark/Teague out having some 'fun' after one of the most embarrassing NCAA losses in Wake's history. That's some culture for you there.

I'm sure that all of Wake's dirty laundry is not aired publicly, so there are probably other issues we know nothing about but they are probably similar to issues all our teams have had.

Just looking at what has happen in the last 6-7 years.

Swinton - paint ball sniper. Look what happened to him after he left.
Teague - selfish player, checked out when he had to share the ball
Sex scandel
Woods - hitting his girlfriend, child's mother
JTT - apparently some sort of drinking problem
Ari - apparently can't handle the work load at Wake
Walker - not emotionally ready for big time Div I athletics (at least he appears to have developed and Skips death may have derailed his development).
Tabb - probably holds the Wake record for most suspensions in a year

Call it culture or something else that's a lot of crap going around Wake hoops in a short period of time.

Note: I'm not sure JJ was a huge issue, he was a special case in that he was older than most and had to take the opportunity to leave while available. AFA comes from a good family that values education, the pressure for him to leave was primarily a financial one, he could have left after one year but didn't.

Finally, no way Wellman fires Dino and points to the 'culture' issues or how he recruits that would have doomed him to never getting a HC shot again. Wellman took the high road and pointed to post season success, which left him completely open to criticism when he hired Bzz. After Dino is gone, Wellman is able to address these 'culture' issues more publicly because Dino is no longer in the conversation.
 
Yes, Wellman waited a couple of months before he started throwing Dino under the bus.

Good guy.
 
TBR said:
Yes, Wellman waited a couple of months before he started throwing Dino under the bus.

Good guy.
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Big difference between having a press conference that is picked up by the national media and explaining locally to alumni and fans.

A lot of the people on this board 'demand' to know all the details whether they deserve to know or not.
 
I notice none of these timelines mention Dino's new contract after the Cleveland State game.
 
I think we're banging around in the right ball park.

Just keep in mind that the two Butler Final 4 teams had 2-3 NBA players on the roster (assuming that PF kid eventually makes a roster somewhere), though they may not have been obvious NBA players out of high school which could be the flag we can all settle on.

Whether or not CMM or Thomas or Moto or whomever has NBA talent at this stage is subjective. All probably have aspirations, but know that there is certainly no guarantee and education will be important.

I think Wellman would like to turn his back on all the drama involving bringing in pre-NBA type players who have been anointed the elite of the elite since the 8th grade and are planning on majoring in pre-NBA. Kentucky and Baylor are going to get 50% those kids right now anyway.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't take a kid like James Johnson. Johnson was an obvious pre-NBA kid. I just think he knew that if the NBA didn't come calling, he was going to go full on kick-boxing, so college to him was a stepping stone, as it is for Anthony Davis and other obviously gifted players.

Syracuse is elite year in year out without elite pre-NBA talent.

Anyway, I think at least on this thread, we're all pretty close to saying / thinking the same thing give or take a player / player-type or two.

Hargrave seems to have Wellman's support though. We've taken kids from their for a long time.

It's doable. Syracuse
 
Then we need a Jim Boeheim.
 
cville deac if you think anyone thought JJ or Teague were more NBA type guys than CMM you are crazy. No one thought either had the potential or skill to be where they ended up after 2 years. That's why they weren't rated in the top 20. After the top 20 or so recruiting becomes a lot less accurate. That's why there is such variation in all of the lists outside the top guys.
 
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