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Fast food strike

That's a straw man. I haven't seen anybody argue fast food workers should be paid considerably more than people in those jobs. I have seen people argue that a lot of them should be paid a reasonable wage that gives them a decent shot at saving some money and building a decent life for themselves.
 
PhDeac said:
That's a straw man. I haven't seen anybody argue fast food workers should be paid considerably more than people in those jobs. I have seen people argue that a lot of them should be paid a reasonable wage that gives them a decent shot at saving some money and building a decent life for themselves.
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Saving money is an individual's responsibility. It is sheer idiocy to use that as an excuse to pay unwarranted wages. If you can't save money flipping burgers, get a better job, a second job, or do something about it to improve your lot in life. It is not a collective responsibility to give somebody more wages than they deserve under the pretense that, oh, well maybe they'll actually save it and not spend it like 90% of Americans do now. If they want to build up savings, they can and should find a way to do so without some union fuck who wants more union dues pushing them to protest for the latest and greatest commie soundbyte-- "the living wage." That's something for nothing. Fuck that noise.

It is amazing that this board has lost its damn mind so much in the last few years that we don't recognize what an absurd proposition this is, or that it would destroy the same jobs it seeks to help, but then again some people on here are still in denial that the ACA's employer mandates are fucking with jobs, hours, and wages.
 
PhDeac said:
That's a straw man. I haven't seen anybody argue fast food workers should be paid considerably more than people in those jobs. I have seen people argue that a lot of them should be paid a reasonable wage that gives them a decent shot at saving some money and building a decent life for themselves.
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Oh, I'm sorry... so the fast food workers are striking and claiming that all minimum wage workers should be paid $15/hr? I hadn't heard that.

I don't think it has ever been the case that a person was expected to be able to work 40 hours a week at minimum wage and live as well as "save some money and build a decent life for themselves." Has it? Am I wrong? I always figured minimum wage workers were either working more than one job (thus more than 40 hours/week), were a member of a household with more than one wage earner, or were working for minimum wage until a better paying job came along (students, etc.).
 
The McDonald's budget fiasco already showed that working two McJobs doesn't do jack for the finances.

What gets me is that people will bitch and moan all day that $250K isn't rich, but thinks $8.15, a steadily decreasing real minimum wage is reasonable. A society in which someone has to work 2 jobs in order to barely make ends meet while so many others are living like Scrooge McDuck isn't a truly free society. "Working hard" isn't going to buy bootstraps.
 
PhDeac said:
The McDonald's budget fiasco already showed that working two McJobs doesn't do jack for the finances.

What gets me is that people will bitch and moan all day that $250K isn't rich, but thinks $8.15, a steadily decreasing real minimum wage is reasonable. A society in which someone has to work 2 jobs in order to barely make ends meet while so many others are living like Scrooge McDuck isn't a truly free society. "Working hard" isn't going to buy bootstraps.
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Alright, entertain me here. $8.15/hour is after all taxes about $1,150/month. Ten bucks a day for food, living should probably be a cheapish sugar creek esque apartment which with roommates you can get for in the $250-300/month range, leaves you something like $18-20/day in discretionary income. Is that not livable in a world of universal health care? I mean you don't have time warner cable or an iphone, but that's the trade-off for living minimum wage.

I agree with you minimum wage should be indexed to inflation, which gets you closer to the $25-30/day of discretionary income at about $9.50/hr. In looking at that it seems to me the biggest thing we can do would be not charge any payroll/medicare taxes on workers making less than say $20k, as that has a very significant effect on the poor.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
from BKF's link



Bootstraps, bitches.
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Just going to guess here. White guy from solid middle class or upper middle class background. Had some help buying his first franchise. He has better bootstraps than the people ELC demeans. He probably started working there to chase a little tail and hang out with his friends. ELC, you're smart enough to know that isn't a decent argument at all.
 
palmab03 said:
Alright, entertain me here. $8.15/hour is after all taxes about $1,150/month. Ten bucks a day for food, living should probably be a cheapish sugar creek esque apartment which with roommates you can get for in the $250-300/month range, leaves you something like $18-20/day in discretionary income. Is that not livable in a world of universal health care? I mean you don't have time warner cable or an iphone, but that's the trade-off for living minimum wage.

I agree with you minimum wage should be indexed to inflation, which gets you closer to the $25-30/day of discretionary income at about $9.50/hr. In looking at that it seems to me the biggest thing we can do would be not charge any payroll/medicare taxes on workers making less than say $20k, as that has a very significant effect on the poor.
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Keep going with your budget.

Nice ninja edit. I think separating health care from employment would help everybody.
 
I like that in palma's world, the only things people need are rent and food. No other insurance or utilities or gas or transportation or clothes or anything.

ELC, are you of the Virginia Foxx school of student loans/higher education? Bootstraps are pretty fucking expensive these days.

It's always the most privileged people who make claims like these.
 
PhDeac said:
Keep going with your budget.

Nice ninja edit. I think separating health care from employment would help everybody.
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Well knowing myself, I have the following things budgeted.

Rent
Food/Drink
Student loans
Cable
Electric/Gas
Car
Car Insurance
Car Gas
Telephone

People on these boards talk about eating for $10/day, so that's doable.

So transportation and utilities appear to be the main other bare essentials. There are tons of cheap apartments in this country where people can walk/bike to minimum wage jobs taking away transportation costs. I did it for 3 years while living at Sugar Creek apartments, and without a car until I was 23 walking to Darryls/Bennigans.

I personally come close to being at about $4/day on Gas/Car insurance in los angeles so its reasonable that people could even afford a car on minimum wage.

You can keep utility costs down to about $3/day as well (those are my costs, and I'm not trying to save, I could layer up in the winter instead of heat and be down around $1.50/day)

Student loans aren't an issue, and probably some sort of home phone plan is reasonable affordable these days.

I mean the major cost for the poor would be healthcare and abusable substances (alcohol/cigarettes)

So to Summarize, 40h/week @ $10/hr or 50h/week at $8/hr results in:

Income after taxes: $45/day
Food: $10/day
Apartment: $10/day
Gas/Car insurance $4/day
Utilities: $3/day
Phone/Television $3/day

Leaves you $15/day or $450/month of discretionary income. Looks like Obamacare makes insurance quite doable about $3/day, to cover your healthcare costs.
 
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Price people out of bootstraps and/or don't allow them to make enough to afford them. And act as if it's preposterous that anyone suggest otherwise. Got it.
 
The bootstraps thing is fucking ridiculous. Maybe like 2-3 posters deserve that response because of how obtuse they are, but stop saying it in place of a valid argument. It destroys everything thread and makes you like a fucking DONK.

I will address an earlier post for PH that it would only raise the price of McDonald's food by 15 cents if they raise their minimum pay to $15/hr and to that answer I say BULLSHIT.

Also I'm pretty sure I've lived off of $13-14/hr after college and been more than able to get buy, and be relatively financially irresponsible. I think I could probably get by on $10/hour as a single person, but I admit that I would have zero room for discretionary spending.
 
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I understand a lot of people's backgrounds don't allow for upward mobility but I still think there's a dangerous precedent paying $15/hour to dropouts who just don't care to work hard. Obtaining a two year degree at community college is very accessible and often provides valuable skills that are in high demand.
 
WRS said:
I understand a lot of people's backgrounds don't allow for upward mobility but I still think there's a dangerous precedent paying $15/hour to dropouts who just don't care to work hard. Obtaining a two year degree at community college is very accessible and often provides valuable skills that are in high demand.
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Whenever I've gone to McDonald's, worker seem to be working very hard. That's a ridiculous claim. McDonald's wouldn't be so successful if the crew was only made up of "dropouts who just don't care to work hard."
 
PhDeac said:
Whenever I've gone to McDonald's, worker seem to be working very hard. That's a ridiculous claim. McDonald's wouldn't be so successful if the crew was only made up of "dropouts who just don't care to work hard."
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I think the work hard comment was referring to working hard to get ahead - as in, for example, working and going to community college at the same time - as many people do.

Look, talk about raising minimum wage some to keep up with inflation a little better and I think all or most of us would be on board. Talk about paying unskilled, uneducated workers $15/hour to work in fast food and we're going to call BS. Does anyone here actually think that is a good, feasible idea?

I have a family member who actually works in fast food and makes just a bit more than minimum wage. This person lives alone in a decent apartment in a nice area. They have a dog but no kids to support. They have an (old, paid-for) car. They get a few food stamps to help out and they make out OK - constantly complain about having no money and, I am sure, have no discretionary funds. It can be done but is no fun.

I have constantly wondered why this person doesn't get another part-time job and have brought it up with them. They are not motivated enough and don't want to work that hard... Oh well, don't complain so much. As it is, they work way less than I do.
 
BillBrasky said:
The bootstraps thing is fucking ridiculous. Maybe like 2-3 posters deserve that response because of how obtuse they are, but stop saying it in place of a valid argument. It destroys everything thread and makes you like a fucking DONK.

I will address an earlier post for PH that it would only raise the price of McDonald's food by 15 cents if they raise their minimum pay to $15/hr and to that answer I say BULLSHIT.

Also I'm pretty sure I've lived off of $13-14/hr after college and been more than able to get buy, and be relatively financially irresponsible. I think I could probably get by on $10/hour as a single person, but I admit that I would have zero room for discretionary spending.
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It's just a placeholder for a discussion we've had a million times, because at the end of the day, it does boil down to people who just think the answer to all poverty problems is "work harder make more don't get born into anything less than great circumstances." It's facile and easy and reductive to just say bootstraps repeatedly, but it's also tired to hear the same overprivileged pieces of shit saying the same thing about wages over and over again, and also almost always be the people against access to affordable education, healthcare, etc.

The people who think the free market is the solution to all society's ills are the ones who've never TRULY been fucked over or victimized by it, it would seem to me. I get that unions have massive problems and that we can't afford to pay everyone $15/hr, I really, really do. But there is another side to this story that fucks like ELC repeatedly and proudly refuse to see.
 
Yes, working hard referred to applying oneself in high school to the extent required to enter a two year degree program. That is not a high bar. And I just Googled and read an October 2012 article about community colleges saying tuition was $3,300/year on average with books and all other fees totaling $1,200/year. The same article suggested that aid, grants and tax breaks covered almost all costs for those students. I don't think that's an outrageously high barrier for people seeking to improve their employment situation. I would be much more in favor of providing specific grant funding to fund those education opportunities than simply raising the fast food to minimum wage to $15/hour. That sets a terrible precedent and sends the wrong message.
 
WRS said:
Yes, working hard referred to applying oneself in high school to the extent required to enter a two year degree program. That is not a high bar. And I just Googled and read an October 2012 article about community colleges saying tuition was $3,300/year on average with books and all other fees totaling $1,200/year. The same article suggested that aid, grants and tax breaks covered almost all costs for those students. I don't think that's an outrageously high barrier for people seeking to improve their employment situation. I would be much more in favor of providing specific grant funding to fund those education opportunities than simply raising the fast food to minimum wage to $15/hour. That sets a terrible precedent and sends the wrong message.
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But spending $200,000-$250,000 on an eduction sends the right message?
 
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