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How Americans Feel About Religious Groups

myDeaconmyhand said:
I don't think atheism is a belief system, it's just a belief. Where would the system come from, and what would be it's purpose? It seems to me that the only thing that Atheism and Islam have in common, are Evangelical Christians dislike and opposition to them.
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Well said.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I'm sure you're not even SLIGHTLY religious at all.

Militant atheism may be very annoying to people but by the same token it's also not advocating vehemently for 1st Century A.D. principles to be applied to 2014 society. I'd rather be annoying that stuck in 33 A.D.

I'd posit that offended atheists are probably offended because of the belief system, not the fact that evangelicals are annoying. That's at least why I have an unfavorable position on evangelicals.
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Numbers I see you bring up the "1st Century" principles or "written 2000 years ago" argument a lot. That seems like a lazy argument. Universal truths were just as true 2000 years ago as they are today as they will be 2000 years from now. If there are principles humans are supposed to live by I see no reason why the age of those principles would have any reflection on their validity. Plato and Aristotle wrote over 2000 years ago, and despite a minimal (or sometimes completely wrong) understanding about how much of the natural world works they were still able to come up with philosophical systems that at least did a pretty good job of describing the ideal human behavior.

Speaking from a Christian viewpoint (since that's what I know the most about) I think most "liberal" churches and believers have been willing to part with any "principles" that resulted from unique cultural and scientific circumstances (see most of Leviticus) or may have resulted from faulty translation (see recent church developments on the treatment of homosexuals). They would also say that the Gospel brought by Jesus is just as true and applicable today as it was in the 1st Century A.D.
 
RChildress107 said:
Atheism (in the strict sense) is certainly a belief system. It is a belief that God or any God-like entity does not exist.

What exactly do you mean by "Atheism is certainly not on par with Islam"?
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What is a belief system by your definition? I don't think you can include a negative in something that usually connotates a positive. To analogize-- not playing football isn't a sport.
 
94Deac said:
The main difference between an Atheist and a deist is that the Atheist doesn't really give a shit what you do or believe- just keep it to yourself. Mark 16:15? The Talmud and Koran also have similar proselytizing charges. Next time an Atheist starts off a city council meeting with a prayer, you can hit him with a shoe.
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We both know that's not true for all Atheists or all Deists. As for Mark 16:15, it tells Christians to go into the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Nowhere does it say "hate them if they don't believe you" or "keep going until they listen" or "go into the world and make sure the rest of the world believes and follows the gospel". Granted that doesn't stop a lot of Christians but I'm going to put that one on humans.

Atheism isn't the same kind of belief system as religions are in the sense that they are codified and organized. And for some people being an atheist simply means believing that God does not exist.

For many Atheists, however, other beliefs are wrapped into or closely related to their belief that God doesn't exist (or perhaps the other way around) such as believing that it is irrational to believe in anything unsupported by science.

You are correct that Atheism (similar to Deism) isn't a belief system, per se, but many Atheists have similar belief systems and advocate for those belief systems in similar ways to religious believers.
 
P4nthers11 said:
What is a belief system by your definition? I don't think you can include a negative in something that usually connotates a positive.
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Strict Atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist. That's different than weak atheism or agnosticism (the line between the two is very fuzzy) which is the absence of belief in God.

I've elaborated above that Atheism isn't a belief system, per se, but that it's fair to speak of certain common beliefs among many Atheists as a roughly constituting a belief system somewhat analogous to other world religions.
 
RChildress107 said:
Numbers I see you bring up the "1st Century" principles or "written 2000 years ago" argument a lot. That seems like a lazy argument. Universal truths were just as true 2000 years ago as they are today as they will be 2000 years from now. If there are principles humans are supposed to live by I see no reason why the age of those principles would have any reflection on their validity. Plato and Aristotle wrote over 2000 years ago, and despite a minimal (or sometimes completely wrong) understanding about how much of the natural world works they were still able to come up with philosophical systems that at least did a pretty good job of describing the ideal human behavior.

Speaking from a Christian viewpoint (since that's what I know the most about) I think most "liberal" churches and believers have been willing to part with any "principles" that resulted from unique cultural and scientific circumstances (see most of Leviticus) or may have resulted from faulty translation (see recent church developments on the treatment of homosexuals). They would also say that the Gospel brought by Jesus is just as true and applicable today as it was in the 1st Century A.D.
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I'm just talking about evangelical Christians, which I will admit that I self-group as generally being literalists.
 
RChildress107 said:
Strict Atheism is a positive belief that God does not exist. That's different than weak atheism or agnosticism (the line between the two is very fuzzy) which is the absence of belief in God.

I've elaborated above that Atheism isn't a belief system, per se, but that it's fair to speak of certain common beliefs among many Atheists as a roughly constituting a belief system somewhat analogous to other world religions.
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I don't think we will ever agree because you appear to be coming from a position that belief in a super-natural deity is the natural, default position and, therefore, absence of belief can be framed as "positive belief that God does not exist." Is this correct? I come from a paradigmatic frame in which everyone is born an atheist.
 
P4nthers11 said:
I don't think we will ever agree because you appear to be coming from a position that belief in a super-natural deity is the natural, default position and, therefore, absence of belief can be framed as "positive belief that God does not exist." Is this correct? I come from a paradigmatic frame in which everyone is born an atheist.
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Without getting into a discussion on innate knowledge (theological or otherwise) I'd guess you probably come from the viewpoint that everyone is born agnostic (without a belief one way or the other). If so the natural, default or neutral position is a negative belief "I do not believe God exists" accompanied by the negative belief "I do not believe that God does not exist". You are right that neither of these views can be framed as a positive belief.

Deism is the positive belief that God exists "I believe God exists" while Atheism (in the strict sense) is the positive belief that God does not exist "I believe that God does not exist".

Think of it as we start at 0 and can either stay at 0 or go to 1 or -1.
 
Interesting conversation, though, as a theist (and more than that, a Christian), I view all of Creation as the product of the Creator (God) and think there is something in all of Creation that innately knows its source. I certainly get the idea that "we're born agnostic/atheist," and from a purely philosophical view, probably agree. But from a theological view, I'd say we start as something close to agnostics, but being tuned towards our Creator- the struggle is to hear those notes and respond.
 
RChildress107 said:
Even if that's true Atheism isn't a blank slate. Agnosticism would be the blank slate.
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To be an asshole about it, a true blank slate would only include a lack of belief, just as a literal blank slate would be lacking in chalk. Newborn brains are most likely unaware of the possibility of a God/gods, and most children don't understand the concept of a metaphysical omniprescence until they develop language skills.
 
At what point in development does "God" really mean "God" to children, instead of just being a make believe partner with Santa Claus and the tooth fairy?
 
P4nthers11 said:
What is a belief system by your definition? I don't think you can include a negative in something that usually connotates a positive. To analogize-- not playing football isn't a sport.
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Right.

I don't believe in ghosts or fairies or unicorns or Santa Claus but that's not a belief system. Those are just beliefs.
 
RChildress107 said:
Without getting into a discussion on innate knowledge (theological or otherwise) I'd guess you probably come from the viewpoint that everyone is born agnostic (without a belief one way or the other). If so the natural, default or neutral position is a negative belief "I do not believe God exists" accompanied by the negative belief "I do not believe that God does not exist". You are right that neither of these views can be framed as a positive belief.

Deism is the positive belief that God exists "I believe God exists" while Atheism (in the strict sense) is the positive belief that God does not exist "I believe that God does not exist".

Think of it as we start at 0 and can either stay at 0 or go to 1 or -1.
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ridiculous

you aren't an anti-zoroastrian or an a-buddhist
 
TownieDeac said:
Right.

I don't believe in ghosts or fairies or unicorns or Santa Claus but that's not a belief system. Those are just beliefs.
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I'd argue that for many those beliefs stem from a core principle similar to "I only believe in theories or propositions supported by scientific observation."

Most people also don't consider those beliefs to be of any importance. I think most atheists would admit that one's belief on the existence of God is important, even if only because of the importance Theists put on it (and the consequences resulting from such a belief).
 
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