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How Americans Feel About Religious Groups

Wakeforest22890 said:
For the most part atheists aren't on what most objective individuals might consider "the wrong side of history"
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Well, historically speaking, there have been a lot fewer atheists. Who are the atheists who, because of their atheism, are on the right side of history?
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I think you could change a word or two in this passage, and it's an evangelical ranting about teh gheys. I get what you're saying, and I don't think creationism has any place in the classroom either. However, you (and 94 too) tend to consistently come off as intolerant as the most conservatively religious posters on here (probably Wrangor) when it comes to religion.
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Give me a fucking break. The OP article underscores exactly the kind of reaction (i.e. yours) Atheists face in most cultures. Say "atheist" to some Southern Baptist or Mormon or Presbyterian or Catholic or Muslim and you're going to engender a negative image or reaction most if not all of the time. Stand up at a 4th of July parade with a "Proud Atheist" shirt and tell me what the reaction is going to be. Ask that public meetings simply open and get down to business- public business- at hand without a prayer to someone's god. Get faced with the omnipresent idea that you can't be a parent or a good American or person if you don't believe in a god. Do some of those things and let me know just how "tolerant" you'd be. I freely admit- and always have- I resent and dislike religion. I'm not a victim or martyr and most of the time, don't even really think about it. But the fact remains that nothing in my beliefs calls for me to proselytize to "save" you or bring you over to my way of thinking. What you believe really doesn't matter for shit to me- I judge you as a person. You know, content of character and all that.

The irony here is that the one person on this board who is actually a religious professional- RevDeac- is the one I find most compelling, mature, and reasonable. I enjoy his presence and the banter we have. It's the keyboard ministers who take it upon themselves to talk shit and ignore some of the teachings of their own alleged beliefs and pass judgements etc who I, apparently like you, find most intolerant. Hope your feelings will survive my "intolerance."
 
94Deac said:
Give me a fucking break. The OP article underscores exactly the kind of reaction (i.e. yours) Atheists face in most cultures. Say "atheist" to some Southern Baptist or Mormon or Presbyterian or Catholic or Muslim and you're going to engender a negative image or reaction most if not all of the time. Stand up at a 4th of July parade with a "Proud Atheist" shirt and tell me what the reaction is going to be. Ask that public meetings simply open and get down to business- public business- at hand without a prayer to someone's god. Get faced with the omnipresent idea that you can't be a parent or a good American or person if you don't believe in a god. Do some of those things and let me know just how "tolerant" you'd be. I freely admit- and always have- I resent and dislike religion. I'm not a victim or martyr and most of the time, don't even really think about it. But the fact remains that nothing in my beliefs calls for me to proselytize to "save" you or bring you over to my way of thinking. What you believe really doesn't matter for shit to me- I judge you as a person. You know, content of character and all that.

The irony here is that the one person on this board who is actually a religious professional- RevDeac- is the one I find most compelling, mature, and reasonable. I enjoy his presence and the banter we have. It's the keyboard ministers who take it upon themselves to talk shit and ignore some of the teachings of their own alleged beliefs and pass judgements etc who I, apparently like you, find most intolerant. Hope your feelings will survive my "intolerance."
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First of all, I don't think I would necessarily identify as religious. I'm more of a pluralist-agnostic with a baptist upbringing. I'm probably one of the more liberal posters on the board on most issues, so I don't see myself getting offended by atheism. I'm just identifying dickishness and intolerance. You freely admit to being intolerant in this post. You just give reasons why you think it's ok. How is this any different from a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, etc. giving reasons for their intolerance?

Religion is responsible for plenty of the world's problems in so much as it's a collective of flawed people and creates opportunities for power and exploration. Religion is also a largely benevolent force throughout the world. I think it's pretty naive to argue otherwise. A majority of religious people, despite the isolationism and ignorance it breeds, are just trying to do what is right in the world for their families just like everyone else.

Also, I don't believe religion belongs in the public square, fwiw. I'm just not a dick about it. I don't think you're being dickish because of your atheism. I think you're just an abrasive dude.
 
I am certainly not rationalizing why intolerance is okay. But one man's lack of tolerance becomes another man's "being dickish." Women who protested the lack of equality were being "dickish" during the suffrage movement. Blacks were being "dickish" when they protested segregation. Native Americans were being "dickish" when they protested oppression. My point is that what someone calls "dickish" is someone else's frustration over the status quo- and it's usually best explained by that whole walking a mile in another's shoes. When the thing that you're not a part of is in your face all day long, over and over, and becomes construed as a requirement to be a good person or good citizen or good parent or good neighbor... yeah it makes you abrasive. And that I'm abrasive is as newsworthy as the sun coming up.
 
94Deac said:
I am certainly not rationalizing why intolerance is okay. But one man's lack of tolerance becomes another man's "being dickish." Women who protested the lack of equality were being "dickish" during the suffrage movement. Blacks were being "dickish" when they protested segregation. Native Americans were being "dickish" when they protested oppression. My point is that what someone calls "dickish" is someone else's frustration over the status quo- and it's usually best explained by that whole walking a mile in another's shoes. When the thing that you're not a part of is in your face all day long, over and over, and becomes construed as a requirement to be a good person or good citizen or good parent or good neighbor... yeah it makes you abrasive. And that I'm abrasive is as newsworthy as the sun coming up.
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This is what we're doing? You're like a modern day freedom rider for oppressed atheists?
 
I debated about whether to try to illustrate the underlying point that way. So since that failed, yes- I'm saying I'm Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Rob Roy, Geronimo, and Moses. Yes, that is what I'm saying. I was trying to be subtle and coy but you tripped me up.

And with that, I'll actually go back to a serious question- why, in an article about "how Americans feel about religious groups" is Atheism even mentioned at all?
 
TWDeac said:
Forgive me if I don't hold this account with the highest regard. I'm sure there are a few blind atheists that would give a different viewpoint.
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:rulz: You know Helen Keller was deaf and blind - without human contact until Annie Sullivan broke through in Helen's late childhood/teen years. This story emerged from their discussion of what it was like before the breakthrough. Your "'few blind atheists" are not the same wrt to human contact.
 
awaken said:
:rulz: You know Helen Keller was deaf and blind - without human contact until Annie Sullivan broke through in Helen's late childhood/teen years. This story emerged from their discussion of what it was like before the breakthrough. Your "'few blind atheists" are not the same wrt to human contact.
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So how did Helen know what God was? It sounds like someone(Annie) described God to her and Helen thought that sounded great. What if John Travolta had gotten ahold of her and told her about Xenu? Would she have felt the presence of that God instead?
 
94Deac said:
I debated about whether to try to illustrate the underlying point that way. So since that failed, yes- I'm saying I'm Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Rob Roy, Geronimo, and Moses. Yes, that is what I'm saying. I was trying to be subtle and coy but you tripped me up.

And with that, I'll actually go back to a serious question- why, in an article about "how Americans feel about religious groups" is Atheism even mentioned at all?
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Because atheism is a view on religion?:noidea:
 
Junebug said:
Because atheism is a view on religion?:noidea:
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In the context of the article, that explanation does not work. They've included it with "religious groups" as though it was one itself.
 
94Deac said:
In the context of the article, that explanation does not work. They've included it with "religious groups" as though it was one itself.
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They're trying to present survey data, not present a peer-reviewed journal article on the classification and nomenclature for every conceivable thought and variety (or lack thereof) about religion. Furthermore, they hope people read their reports, so if they had a large introduction that waded into this debate, they'd lose readers.
 
RevDeac06 said:
They're trying to present survey data, not present a peer-reviewed journal article on the classification and nomenclature for every conceivable thought and variety (or lack thereof) about religion. Furthermore, they hope people read their reports, so if they had a large introduction that waded into this debate, they'd lose readers.
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My point is to the use of "groups." With the spectrum they've included, they're counting "Atheism" as a "religious group." Just strikes me as peculiar. And I'd imagine some devout followers of certain religious groups would take exception with Atheism being included. But yes, it's all about readership.
 
TWDeac said:
So how did Helen know what God was? It sounds like someone(Annie) described God to her and Helen thought that sounded great. What if John Travolta had gotten ahold of her and told her about Xenu? Would she have felt the presence of that God instead?
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... and that caused her to fabricate a story about her earlier experiences? She doesn't indicate she knew what was out there, but that someone was out there. No blank slate. But yeah, Travolta would have defined the thing she perceived differently.
 
awaken said:
... and that caused her to fabricate a story about her earlier experiences? She doesn't indicate she knew what was out there, but that someone was out there. No blank slate. But yeah, Travolta would have defined the thing she perceived differently.
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I'm not saying she fabricated her story. I'm just saying that she would have been amazingly impressionable at that time and would have latched on to anything. I personally don't believe that people are predisposed to religion and Helen Keller doesn't sway that needle one bit, so we can just agree to disagree.
 
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