Mariano: 100%

[Shorty]

A closer typically enters the game in the 9th inning of a close game, one that’s tied or a team leads by one or two runs.

Let’s extrapolate that to other sports. The last 1/18 of a basketball game is the last 2:13. The last 1/18 of a football game is the last 3:20.

If somehow you had a player who could near guarantee your basketball team would not lose a game in regulation that was close after 2:13, he would clearly be valuable, even if he only played for the last two minutes. Same with football. Maybe a pass rusher who almost guaranteed a 3 and out after 3:20. Clearly valuable.

A pitcher gets credit for a save as long as he pitches an inning and his team's lead is no more than three runs. That's part of the argument against. How hard is it to hold a three run lead for one inning? Or a two run lead, for that matter.

Also, it’s unusual for a closer to come in in the ninth inning of a tie game. Manager’s don’t want to “waste” their closer in a non-save situation. They’ll usually save him in the event that their team gets a lead in extra innings.

 

[silk]

Rivera had what; 2 pitches, 2 fastballs with a late break (almost 100 mph)
He played for the Yankees so got lots of save and media exposure.
Best closer ain't same as best pitcher. A true #1 starter could be a great closer on ability.
The mental part is big for closers. Rivera had that.
GOAT closer yeah.

Ken Griffry, Jr., IMO, is the best player ever. If his body had held up he would have most all the hitting stats.

 

[WFU71]

Absolutely - if you need 3 outs there a bunch of guys I'd rather take - Pedro Martinez, Sandy Koufax, Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Walter Johnson, Randy Johnson, etc.

Relief pitchers are relief pitchers because they aren't good enough to be starters - Rivera included. Virtually all starting pitchers would have had better numbers as relievers if they only had to worry about throwing 15-20 pitches as opposed to 100.

Not necessarily true regarding Rivera. He was a terrific starter in the Minors. He sucked when he first came up to the Yankees and was sent back down. When he returned he was 2-0 with a 1.80 ERA in three starts when he split a fingernail. Coming off of that injury, his last three starts sucked. I'm not saying we would have been a HOF quality starter, but he hadn't devolped the cutter then.

 

[DeacinBama]

Also, it’s unusual for a closer to come in in the ninth inning of a tie game. Manager’s don’t want to “waste” their closer in a non-save situation. They’ll usually save him in the event that their team gets a lead in extra innings.

seems like i see home teams bring in their closers in the top of the 9th of tied games all the time.

 

[Biff Tannen]

#strategy

 

[timthedeac]

Shame on everyone engaging in this debate. You're giving legitimacy to an organization that voted Mike Mussina over Roger Clemons and Edgar Martinez over Barry Bonds.

 

[WFU71]

Rivera had what; 2 pitches, 2 fastballs with a late break (almost 100 mph)
He played for the Yankees so got lots of save and media exposure.
Best closer ain't same as best pitcher. A true #1 starter could be a great closer on ability.
The mental part is big for closers. Rivera had that.
GOAT closer yeah.

Ken Griffry, Jr., IMO, is the best player ever. If his body had held up he would have most all the hitting stats.

That's a can of worms. Imagine what Mantle might have done with good knees. The book "The Last Boy" (a great read) makes the case that his injury in the 1951 WS was actually a torn ACL that was never repaired. He also played several years with practically no cartledge in either knee.

 

[RJKarl]

Or what would Mays' and McCovey's numbers have been had they not played in Candlestick?

 

[silk]

guys, michael jordan also played baseball professionally

Saw Jordan play a spring training game. Played center, maybe right. Looked very thin compared to his teammates.
Only fielded 1 fly ball. Took 2 steps in then had to sprint back just like the 8 year olds I used to coach.
The kids lined up to get his autograph, ignored Frank Thomas.

 

[silk]

That's a can of worms. Imagine what Mantle might have done with good knees. The book "The Last Boy" (a great read) makes the case that his injury in the 1951 WS was actually a torn ACL that was never repaired. He also played several years with practically no cartledge in either knee.

Ya Difficult ( maybei impossible) to compare different eras

OTOH Grriffy faced far better pitching than the oldtimers.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

nothing in sports is dumber than baseball writer purists

Mariano definitely doesn't deserve to be the first ever unanimous guy, but glad the bullshit is over

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

Stealing this from Reddit, but it’s good illustration of how dominant Rivera was in his role. Let’s say you’re putting together a all time baseball team to play the baseball version of the Monstars. You’re up with a save situation in the ninth. Is there any question who you give the ball to?

just leave Pedro in

 

[Milhouse]

oops

 

[RJKarl]

nothing in sports is dumber than baseball writer purists

Mariano definitely doesn't deserve to be the first ever unanimous guy, but glad the bullshit is over

Somebody had to end that BS. He had lots going for him to be it. The timing was right. He was indisputably the best ever at his position. Being a classy, universally well liked person helped him a lot as well.

 

[netflixnchildres]

Obviously. The correct answer is Garrett Anderson with 105% of the vote.

IDK Brady Anderson wins it for me

Best sideburns of the 90s

 

[netflixnchildres]

I looked to go for the ceremony this morning and every hotel nearby is booked, best options were staying 11 miles away in a double wide trailer.

 

[Milhouse]

guess you'll have to come up with something better to do. good luck.

 

[deacfan123]

Baseball HOF is a joke, but why won't Jeter be unanimous now? Will there really be 10 better players than him on the ballot next year? And do people really not think he should be in the hall of fame?

 

[netflixnchildres]

guess you'll have to come up with something better to do. good luck.

 

[WFU71]

Ya Difficult ( maybei impossible) to compare different eras

OTOH Grriffy faced far better pitching than the oldtimers.

You should have just stuck with the different era comment. Mantle faced pitchers standing on a 15" mound, with the benefit of a larger strike zone and who could drill him with a fastball with relative impunity. After he retired the mound was lowered to 10"with a tighter strike zone. MLB also got more serious about doctored balls. Then specialized relievers made things more difficult for batters.

I saw them both in their primes and would take a healthy Mantle over Griffey - others might disagree with me. I'd take Mays over both of them, but he didn't have the injuries the guys we're discussing did.