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MBB Game 17: WF plays the most under-performing program - Duke Wed. 7 pm ACCN

Wasn't the "dumb" foul at the end of first half on Muscius?
 
JOJESMA said:
Wasn't the "dumb" foul at the end of first half on Muscius?
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Yes. I believe so. Where we absolutely MUST improve is unforced turnovers. Playing loose is one thing but circus passes against Duke is not typically going to work out well. We need to better value each possession to win these type games.
 
PaddyWF said:
I will care a lot less about this game if we beat Virginia on the road.
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Not sure how one can be so confident about @ UVA. They've won 3 of their last 4 with the one blowout loss to UNC, but beat the Cuse on the road who by all measures had us beat at our place. We have to clean up the turnovers and avoid early foul trouble for any of our players. Hoping our bigs can win the battles down low as thankfully no real big threats on UVA side and really need Jake to have a nice game to accompany Manman after an off game vs. Devils.
 
Miami delivered a master class on backdoor cuts vs Duke. Thought some of that might be in our game plan since Williams/LaRavia and others see the floor so well. Never really materialized, save for 1-2 times...
 
We have a very small margin for error. When we can't shoot the three that margin is all but gone. We're sloppy with the ball, I think we're averaging about 20 turnovers a game in ACC play, that's probably not going to change, but we can't turn it over 20+ times AND shoot 12% from three. If Mucius can hit some early 3's great, but when he's off, he's off. Seems like we should be running some plays for LaRavia if we want to take 3's early in the game. The other guys are streaky at best.
 
We also have trouble playing effective defense for the entire game. We played defense for 14 min of the first half after dook got out to the early lead. We saw it at the end of the 'cuse game and at VT for example. We've seen them do it but they have a hard time doing it for 40 min.
 
Not all turnovers are the same. We've had 20 turnover games with offensive fouls, travels, passes out of bounds, and such. Those ended up being relatively harmless because on other possessions, we were hitting very efficient shots. But against Duke, those turnovers were steals due to Duke's defense and bad passes that led to fastbreaks.
 
PhDeac said:
Not all turnovers are the same. We've had 20 turnover games with offensive fouls, travels, passes out of bounds, and such. Those ended up being relatively harmless because on other possessions, we were hitting very efficient shots. But against Duke, those turnovers were steals due to Duke's defense and bad passes that led to fastbreaks.
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F$U had 16 steals against us, difference was The noles shot 24% and Duke shot 50%
 
We've probably exhausted all hot takes, but I always like to summarize my thoughts, even if it's just for me.

Duke has better players than Wake Forest this season. I had hoped that we might pull an upset at home through better execution and more emotion, but it wasn't meant to be.

The 3 point shooting was bad, but it just felt like the ball stuck at lot more in our offense than it usually does. Too much iso and as Forbes mentioned in the post-game, they didn't help on Williams... Which led to a shitload of ugly turnovers.

The fouls on LaRavia in the 1st half kept him from impacting the game when it mattered. That sucked because, you know, he's our 2nd best player.

I don't blame Forbes for much of this. It's not his fault that we shit the bed at the end of the 1st half. I also don't know how you can blame him for that run continuing in the second half. The gameplan looked solid to me... The execution was lacking. Can't have lapses against a team as talented as Duke.

Random thoughts: Not sure why Whitt started and then never came back in. Williamson needs to rediscover his 3 point stroke. Hildreth played pretty well, which was good to see. Hoping to get Monsanto on the court soon.

Looking for us to bounce back this weekend. I expect a better effort, even on the road against the tough UVA defense.
 
I would love to see Taylor and McCray get a few minutes to see if they have ACC potential.
 
DeacsATS said:
We've probably exhausted all hot takes, but I always like to summarize my thoughts, even if it's just for me.

Duke has better players than Wake Forest this season. I had hoped that we might pull an upset at home through better execution and more emotion, but it wasn't meant to be.

The 3 point shooting was bad, but it just felt like the ball stuck at lot more in our offense than it usually does. Too much iso and as Forbes mentioned in the post-game, they didn't help on Williams... Which led to a shitload of ugly turnovers.

The fouls on LaRavia in the 1st half kept him from impacting the game when it mattered. That sucked because, you know, he's our 2nd best player.

I don't blame Forbes for much of this. It's not his fault that we shit the bed at the end of the 1st half. I also don't know how you can blame him for that run continuing in the second half. The gameplan looked solid to me... The execution was lacking. Can't have lapses against a team as talented as Duke.

Random thoughts: Not sure why Whitt started and then never came back in. Williamson needs to rediscover his 3 point stroke. Hildreth played pretty well, which was good to see. Hoping to get Monsanto on the court soon.

Looking for us to bounce back this weekend. I expect a better effort, even on the road against the tough UVA defense.
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I was at the game last night. I agree 100% with your thoughts.

Our improvement from last year, and of course from 2 seasons ago, is phenomenal. However, we are simply one or two weapons (in my mind, a reliable 3-point shooter and another player above 6'5" who can create his own shot) away from being really, really good.
 
DeacsATS said:
We've probably exhausted all hot takes, but I always like to summarize my thoughts, even if it's just for me.

Duke has better players than Wake Forest this season. I had hoped that we might pull an upset at home through better execution and more emotion, but it wasn't meant to be.

The 3 point shooting was bad, but it just felt like the ball stuck at lot more in our offense than it usually does. Too much iso and as Forbes mentioned in the post-game, they didn't help on Williams... Which led to a shitload of ugly turnovers.

The fouls on LaRavia in the 1st half kept him from impacting the game when it mattered. That sucked because, you know, he's our 2nd best player.

I don't blame Forbes for much of this. It's not his fault that we shit the bed at the end of the 1st half. I also don't know how you can blame him for that run continuing in the second half. The gameplan looked solid to me... The execution was lacking. Can't have lapses against a team as talented as Duke.

Random thoughts: Not sure why Whitt started and then never came back in. Williamson needs to rediscover his 3 point stroke. Hildreth played pretty well, which was good to see. Hoping to get Monsanto on the court soon.

Looking for us to bounce back this weekend. I expect a better effort, even on the road against the tough UVA defense.
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That was surprising about Whitt. Also if you remember the game before Hildreth sat out most of the game and Whitt played alot. Perhaps he is trying to figure out which one deserves more time now that Williamson is back.
 
Not that I'm tracking them all but just from memory on Williams turnovers:

- 2 that were just to no one
- 1 was on trying a skip pass that looked like and interception in football when the QB throws it right to the DB, you could see it as soon as he released it
- 1 in close, turnover under the basket when I think he was caught and tried to dump it off

Based on the way he plays and his agressiveness he's probably going to have 3-4 TO's a game, but 3 of the above were not about dook defense just poor decisions

Cam had high energy and was fighting for balls, Forbes probably stayed with him because he's physically prepared to battle. Against 'cuse he didn't play because Whitt was carving up the 'cuse defense with his passing.

I doubt Forbes is experimenting in the games, two different games and two different styles and ability needed, since neither are really scoring much at all.
 
why are people surprised Whitt did not come back in? He was completely overmatched when he was on the floor. He could not get us into the offense. Hildreth came in and, while not flawless, definitely competed and gave us a spark. Daivien had his defensive and shooting issues but he did attack the rim and draw fouls.

note this is not a commentary on whether Whitt will one day develop, just an observation of what happened last night.
 
If Whitt and Williamson are both gonna miss everything, then I’d rather have Whitt. Both guys were overmatched, but Williamson just kills us with those jumpers…

Only thing that made me rethink that was the brief stint where Williamson was drawing fouls.

Then, he fell in love with his jumper again.
 
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