Michelle Obama gets into a scrap with Republicans

[jhmd2000]

Ah, I see we've moved on to generic government-bashing. The best thing government ever did to help poor black people was forcibly integrate the schools. The private sector and the white powers that be responded to that by opening more and more private schools to help whites escape. Then white people spent years lobbying to effectively re-segregate the schools and get taxpayer money for their effectively segregated private schools. Of the two, at least government tried to make a positive impact, and by doing so impacted the racial attitudes of several generations of Americans for the better.

I will certainly agree with you that many government interventions purporting to help poor people have been ineffective or worse (urban renewal, anyone?) but it's disingenuous to chalk that up to "government = bad because emails". Rather, you should recognize that government action has often been co-opted by private, rich (white) interests and those interests have driven some of the worst abuses. It doesn't have to be that way. Rather than selling the government = bad narrative, I prefer advocating for better government for ALL the people, not just the rich, usually white ones. Unfortunately that often results in people like you having to get all squirmy when government takes action that doesn't line up with your rich white preferences.

I keep forgetting how rich I am. Remind me, which one of us went to a private undergraduate institution that costs tens of thousands of dollars per year?

But congrats again on the "privileged, rich white" monolith. Apparently mass stereotypes are just fine so long as they lump the right people into the right groups. Or sometimes even the wrong, right people. For you to unapologetically judge other people based solely on their skin color is something that you shouldn't be so comfortable doing.

 

[PhDeac]

I keep forgetting how rich I am. Remind me, which one of us went to a private undergraduate institution that costs tens of thousands of dollars per year?

jhmd, do you realize you're not arguing with a bunch of Occupy hippies? You're arguing with well-to-do white guys who probably make what you make or more and live a similar lifestyle.

 

[Deacon923]

Good non-response. Thanks for the massive derail of the thread. Glad we all agreed pages ago that good nutrition for kids in schools is a good idea. I need to go get some work done to support my monolithic white lifestyle.

 

[jhmd2000]

jhmd, do you realize you're not arguing with a bunch of Occupy hippies? You're arguing with well-to-do white guys who probably make what you make or more and live a similar lifestyle.

Indeed, that's the very point of my post, since I'd hate to be accused of gobbling up all of the privilege on the Boards. Most of the people here come from wealthier families than I do.

eta: I've said my part in this tickle fight. If you can't see the obvious deterrent in the "You're a victim, the system is out to get you" infini'rant, and you think that telling someone they are incapable of succeeding on their own is a message of empowerment, good damned luck. Just make sure you own it as proudly at the finish line as you did at the starting line.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

While money plays into privilege, the white privilege that I'm (and I believe others) talking about are those systemic and structural forces that reinforce the status quo. I'm talking about two people being totally equal from the same background and the same education level, one person of color and one white, where the white person gets perks that the person of color does not (and on a daily basis) which provides the white person a leg up even if all else is equal.

 

[jhmd2000]

While money plays into privilege, the white privilege that I'm (and I believe others) talking about are those systemic and structural forces that reinforce the status quo. I'm talking about two people being totally equal from the same background and the same education level, one person of color and one white, where the white person gets perks that the person of color does not (and on a daily basis) which provides the white person a leg up even if all else is equal.

Right. We're all still very much in agreement on this point. I still don't know what you propose to do about it. As to two similarly situated people laboring without the benefit of this privilege, what would your message to them be? Because you don't have privilege, my most heartfelt advice for you going forward is that you should _________________________.

 

[bigdoublezero]

... examine the policies of the U.S. Military and go from there?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I would never say that to someone.

 

[jhmd2000]

I would never say that to someone.

I guess it would be kind of offensive to tell someone to their face that you view them as a victim. Better to do such things behind their backs.

Here lies "Telling People the Truth."
He lived a short and happy life on this thread. Born at the tender age of Page 10, he passed away peacefully in his sleep a scant two pages later. R.I.P.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I'm in favor of having an open and truthful discussion with people about race, but I would never frame it in the condescending manner in which you wanted me to play your game.

" Because you don't have privilege, my most heartfelt advice for you going forward is that you should _________________________."

I wouldn't frame the discussion as "let me talk to you about how you, as a person of color, can better position yourself. Sincerely, the white guy."

 

[jhmd2000]

I'm in favor of having an open and truthful discussion with people about race, but I would never frame it in the condescending manner in which you wanted me to play your game.

" Because you don't have privilege, my most heartfelt advice for you going forward is that you should _________________________."

I wouldn't frame the discussion as "let me talk to you about how you, as a person of color, can better position yourself. Sincerely, the white guy."

Wait, what is MORE condescending that announcing for someone else that they are a victim? #isthisreallife?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

It's an objective fact that people of color are at a disadvantage in society as compared to white people. There's nothing condescending about that at all. You keep making up strawmen though, it's far easier than utilizing any critical thinking skills apparently.

 

[jhmd2000]

It's an objective fact that people of color are at a disadvantage in society as compared to white people. There's nothing condescending about that at all. You keep making up strawmen though, it's far easier than utilizing any critical thinking skills apparently.

Incorrect. The MOST condescending thing is the message behind affirmative action. That's untouchably condescending.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

No it's not - at all. The underlying premise is that white people have privileges in society that provide them with considerably more opportunities than people of color and affirmative action is a means of mitigating this privilege. It's damn convenient to continue to acknowledge white privilege exists and to address the problem merely say "let's just try harder within the system as individuals" rather than "lets actually try to end this privilege."

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Under your logic, a victim of rape should just try harder not to get raped in the future instead of society trying to end rape at large with group action.

 

[jhmd2000]

It's an objective fact that people of color are at a disadvantage in society as compared to white people. There's nothing condescending about that at all. You keep making up strawmen though, it's far easier than utilizing any critical thinking skills apparently.

Aren't you the guy who just said that you would be afraid to admit to people that you view them as a victim? That you're in favor of "an open and truthful discussion" just so long as it wasn't to somebody's face?

My guess is that if that open and truthful discussion managed to wiggle its way to your rarefied plateau in life, you'd lapse into my message of empowerment and personal responsibility post haste, for fear of having to actually confess the way you see other people to their faces. That's not exactly a telltale sign of confidence in one's position.

 

[TownieDeac]

Incorrect. The MOST condescending thing is the message behind affirmative action. That's untouchably condescending.

Were abolitionist efforts condescending?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

So if I don't talk to someone the way you want then I'm against open discussion?

That's like saying you're against talking about obesity with obese people if you refuse to call them a fat fucking slob. It's nowhere close to the only way to have a conversation.

 

[jhmd2000]

No it's not - at all. The underlying premise is that white people have privileges in society that provide them with considerably more opportunities than people of color and affirmative action is a means of mitigating this privilege. It's damn convenient to continue to acknowledge white privilege exists and to address the problem merely say "let's just try harder within the system as individuals" rather than "lets actually try to end this privilege."

For the eighth time in this thread, HOW? What idea do you have that is better than focusing our efforts on improving the pillars of progress in any community: strong local leadership, mentorship, role models, achievement-based education and personal responsibility? What magic formula are you sitting on that beats my plan? Time to break the seal on the fairness elixir, numbers. Quit burying the lead.

 

[jhmd2000]

So if I don't talk to someone the way you want then I'm against open discussion?

That's like saying you're against talking about obesity with obese people if you refuse to call them a fat fucking slob. It's nowhere close to the only way to have a conversation.

An inappropriate analogy to be sure, but taking what you've offered, your approach to dealing with obesity would be an "open and honest discussion" that touches on all relevant solutions except diet and exercise. Those are presumptuous.