Muslim WFU Law Student Writes...

[pourdeac]

Needless to say, this guy gives people the benefit of the doubt almost universally, and I think if more people would just get to know their Muslim neighbors they would realize that the overwhelming majority are great people.

I'm sure I will get plenty of tl;dr for this and possibly some neg reps, but I just had to tell my encouraging story.

Great story and post. That's what America is all about. It's really sad to see the ignorant attacks of Americans.....particularly white Americans...as if these fears are unnatural and/or are based on some sort of special white Judeo Christian bigotry. It's not and never has been. America is the most accepting county in the world, it's extremist politics that makes it seem like we aren't.

People discriminate from others by culture and race..even football team colors. That's what we do. That doesn't mean we hate anyone. But when something like 9-11 happens then everyone associated with those lines of demarcation are going to be unfairly lumped into it, thus the plight of the author. It's unfair, but it should be understandable. I'm glad your neighbor understands that.

That said, Muslims have greater issues because their religion goes against some primary tenants of western culture, primarily the treatment of women. Western culture is also open, while they cover up. It seems backward to a lot of people. That sentiment will change to some extent, but it is also quite scary to see what is happening in Europe. That can not continue. IMO this cultural clash will force a Muslim "reformation". My wife travels quite a bit to Abu Dhabi and tells me the younger generations are starting to go against these uber conservative views. Some of these clashes against governments throughout the ME may precipitate such changes, who knows. It's inevitable though.

Just my 0.02.

And whomever said the Amish don't care about what happens outside their world is really uninformed. I'm of Mennonite decent and I get tired of people stereotyping my culture. It's always open season on making fun of Amish and Asian cultures...because they don't complain. Sad.

 

[jhmd2000]

jhmd, from your statistical expertise, what is a "statistically significant number of Islamic extremists are involved in illegal violence against unarmed civilian Western targets" out of 1.6 billion people?

By my count, we are engaged in three shooting wars in four countries (four/five if you count Yemen), so, enough to support those regimes at least, but even if you just limit yourself to attacks against completely unarmed civilian targets, Islamic extremists have killed thousands of U.S. civilians, both home and abroad. Thousands over four different decades. That strikes me as significant.

It defies logic for you to say that the extremists are isolated kooks, b/c extremist factions control many of the countries in the Middle East. Enough to openly support OBL/Al-Q in Afghanistan (before we knocked them out of power), and enough to covertly support him in Pakistan (afterwards). Extremist regimes continue to occupy power in Iran (where they kill people for being gay) and Libya, and Syria and Yemen are hardly western democracies. So...statistically significant enough to support the continued exercise of power of those brutal regimes.

Statistically significant enough that Salmon Rushdie had to go into hiding. For a book. Statistically significant enough for Danish cartoon artists to receive death threats. For a cartoon. Statistically significant enough that our own government is scared to show a picture, so we're censoring history. Statistically significant enough to kill passengers on commuter trains in England and Spain, U.S. and other passengers of Scotland on Pan-Am 103 and night club goers in German and Indonesia. Daniel Pearl got beheaded for no reason. Significant enough to bring down the Towers. In my statistical experience, we're down several skyscrapers at Ground Zero, and that has always struck me as significant. Statistically significant enough for this list to go on as long as you have patience, starting with Israeli athletes getting executed for no reason all the way to the arrests this past week. How long would you like me to continue before you concede that we're not talking about 10 bad apples in a billion?

Throughout this thread, I've repeatedly said they are a blip on the whole, but significant enough to have a firm grasp of power over many countries and continue to perpetuate violence. Of course, you'd rather show everyone who "switched on and tolerant" you are by turning the discussion on Lectro and I rather than, say, the facts and history. Naievete and vanity aren't wearing very well, but then again, no one engaged in the solution is counting on you to do much about this glaring problem. Please resume your high, mighty and pathetically impotent refusal to engage; which I am sure is already in progress.

 

[PhDeac]

1,600,000,000 people, jhmd.

I think the ones you're talking about have earned the right to be treated as scum and the ones who aren't should be treated like human beings.

 

[HuskyDeac]

"If the silent majority want it to stop, I suggest they spend their time outting the Hassan's before they shoot the place up, rather than bitching about funny looks they get" -JHMD200

"I firmly believe we would all have much greater rapport if only there were vocal Muslim groups condemning the Radical elements...the response to date has been tepid at best." -Lectro

"If Muslims don't want to be associated with terrorism committed in the name of Islam, which I'm sure most don't, they need to do a better job of policing their own." -Sailordeac

"They need to be at least as vocal as muslims recently staging funerals for bin Laden in the UK and calling for further violence to avenge his "murder"." -Shorty


How many examples would you ignorant haters like before you realize 99%+ Muslim Americans hate this shit more than yourselves? I'm just wondering, since you've all seem to ignored dozens/hundreds of condemnations from Muslim Americans.

 

[jhmd2000]

1,600,000,000 people, jhmd.

I think the ones you're talking about have earned the right to be treated as scum and the ones who aren't should be treated like human beings.

CLEARLY that's what we're arguing about. :rulz:

Way to change the topic.

 

[jhmd2000]

"If the silent majority want it to stop, I suggest they spend their time outting the Hassan's before they shoot the place up, rather than bitching about funny looks they get" -JHMD200

"I firmly believe we would all have much greater rapport if only there were vocal Muslim groups condemning the Radical elements...the response to date has been tepid at best." -Lectro

"If Muslims don't want to be associated with terrorism committed in the name of Islam, which I'm sure most don't, they need to do a better job of policing their own." -Sailordeac

"They need to be at least as vocal as muslims recently staging funerals for bin Laden in the UK and calling for further violence to avenge his "murder"." -Shorty


How many examples would you ignorant haters like before you realize 99%+ Muslim Americans hate this shit more than yourselves? I'm just wondering, since you've all seem to ignored dozens/hundreds of condemnations from Muslim Americans.

Oh, I see. This is the part where you are just so incredibly tolerant of everything around you that you become incensed with rage and start lashing out with name-calling at the mere prospect of someone having a different opinion. It seems your tolerance* knows no limits.

Wait, did I say tolerance? I meant hypocrisy.

Save it, junior. It's not ignorant or hateful to point out that when you do bad things, you get a bad reputation. That's life. Sorry, but you can't wish it away.

 

[Lectro]

Great story and post. That's what America is all about. It's really sad to see the ignorant attacks of Americans.....particularly white Americans...as if these fears are unnatural and/or are based on some sort of special white Judeo Christian bigotry. It's not and never has been. America is the most accepting county in the world, it's extremist politics that makes it seem like we aren't.

People discriminate from others by culture and race..even football team colors. That's what we do. That doesn't mean we hate anyone. But when something like 9-11 happens then everyone associated with those lines of demarcation are going to be unfairly lumped into it, thus the plight of the author. It's unfair, but it should be understandable. I'm glad your neighbor understands that.

That said, Muslims have greater issues because their religion goes against some primary tenants of western culture, primarily the treatment of women. Western culture is also open, while they cover up. It seems backward to a lot of people. That sentiment will change to some extent, but it is also quite scary to see what is happening in Europe. That can not continue. IMO this cultural clash will force a Muslim "reformation". My wife travels quite a bit to Abu Dhabi and tells me the younger generations are starting to go against these uber conservative views. Some of these clashes against governments throughout the ME may precipitate such changes, who knows. It's inevitable though.

Just my 0.02.

And whomever said the Amish don't care about what happens outside their world is really uninformed. I'm of Mennonite decent and I get tired of people stereotyping my culture. It's always open season on making fun of Amish and Asian cultures...because they don't complain. Sad.

THIS ^^^

Tolerance huh? Talk to the Dancing Boys of Afghanistan (PBS FRONTLINE : watch it and puke). Talk to the millions of Muslim women who are abused, raped and generally treated like cattle. Incredible reversal of events and truly a mark of paradox...."calls for tolerance for the most intolerant Religion, Faith, Ideology on God's green earth."

 

[RJKarl]

"If the silent majority want it to stop, I suggest they spend their time outting the Hassan's before they shoot the place up, rather than bitching about funny looks they get" -JHMD200

The problem with Hassan is that the military KNEW hewas wacko

"I firmly believe we would all have much greater rapport if only there were vocal Muslim groups condemning the Radical elements...the response to date has been tepid at best." -Lectro

You mean like how the iman of the "Ground Zero mosque came out immediately and denounced the 9/11 attacks as agasint all prinicples of Islam. or how multiple US Administrations have used him to negotiate with Muslims around the world? How did that work out for him?

"If Muslims don't want to be associated with terrorism committed in the name of Islam, which I'm sure most don't, they need to do a better job of policing their own." -Sailordeac

You mean like how the Christians in the south outed the KKK?

 

[jhmd2000]

"If the silent majority want it to stop, I suggest they spend their time outting the Hassan's before they shoot the place up, rather than bitching about funny looks they get" -JHMD200

The problem with Hassan is that the military KNEW hewas wacko

"I firmly believe we would all have much greater rapport if only there were vocal Muslim groups condemning the Radical elements...the response to date has been tepid at best." -Lectro

You mean like how the iman of the "Ground Zero mosque came out immediately and denounced the 9/11 attacks as agasint all prinicples of Islam. or how multiple US Administrations have used him to negotiate with Muslims around the world? How did that work out for him?

"If Muslims don't want to be associated with terrorism committed in the name of Islam, which I'm sure most don't, they need to do a better job of policing their own." -Sailordeac

You mean like how the Christians in the south outed the KKK?

RJ:

I'm going to have a civil discussion with you, and I would like you to participate. You are 100% correct, but it is because of the hypervigilance against profiling/discrimination that the military and law enforcement have to treat cases like his with kid gloves. You simply have to see that; and having been in the military,I can tell you I've seen it with my own two eyes. As this kid's editorial shows, there are more than a few people willing to gobble up any claims of victimhood and run with it, regardless of the facts. That's red meat to the P.C. crowd.

Do you not connect the dots between the P.C. culture exhibited on the posts of this thread and the fact that the military was cautious in singling-out Hassan before taking action? Why would they be cautious, but-for the hyperconcern with sensitivity? What would give them even a moment's hestitation, OTHER than P.C. fall-out of picking on..."the Muslim guy in the unit"?

 

[Lectro]

RJ:

I'm going to have a civil discussion with you, and I would like you to participate. You are 100% correct, but it is because of the hypervigilance against profiling/discrimination that the military and law enforcement have to treat cases like his with kid gloves. You simply have to see that; and having been in the military,I can tell you I've seen it with my own two eyes. As this kid's editorial shows, there are more than a few people willing to gobble up any claims of victimhood and run with it, regardless of the facts. That's red meat to the P.C. crowd.

Do you not connect the dots between the P.C. culture exhibited on the posts of this thread and the fact that the military was cautious in singling-out Hassan before taking action? Why would they be cautious, but-for the hyperconcern with sensitivity? What would give them even a moment's hestitation, OTHER than P.C. fall-out of picking on..."the Muslim guy in the unit"?

 

[Lectro]

This ^^

It has the stab of reality.

 

[RJKarl]

mosques have infiltrated by the FBI. Imans going to a convention about bigotry are taken off planes. Muslims who have peacefullt live in TN for over thirty years are denied the right to build a community. They are told their faith isn't aa failth.

Sorry, Hassan being about PC nonsense. It's about incompetence.

 

[jhmd2000]

mosques have infiltrated by the FBI. Imans going to a convention about bigotry are taken off planes. Muslims who have peacefullt live in TN for over thirty years are denied the right to build a community. They are told their faith isn't aa failth.

Sorry, Hassan being about PC nonsense. It's about incompetence.

I think we have a difference of opinion, but it is nice to exchange ideas in a respectful manner.

 

[DinDC]

This ^^

It has the stab of reality.

Shouldn't you be writing your blog or an article for the Journal?

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Does anyone even know what Lectro and jhmd are talking about anymore? This is as simple as I can make it: Hate crimes and religious intolerance are unacceptable and if you think that "fighting terrorism" or any other patriotic bullshit is a excuse to allow those things in America, you're fucking wrong. Apparently, the law school student had the correct audience for his article. BTW, how Muslim women are treated in the middle east, or what happened to that fruitcake Salmon Rushdie has nothing to do with this discussion. If you have a problem with those things, you need to take it up with the people responsible for those events, because this is the wrong audience.

 

[Lectro]

Does anyone even know what Lectro and jhmd are talking about anymore? This is as simple as I can make it: Hate crimes and religious intolerance are unacceptable and if you think that "fighting terrorism" or any other patriotic bullshit is a excuse to allow those things in America, you're fucking wrong. Apparently, the law school student had the correct audience for his article. BTW, how Muslim women are treated in the middle east, or what happened to that fruitcake Salmon Rushdie has nothing to do with this discussion. If you have a problem with those things, you need to take it up with the people responsible for those events, because this is the wrong audience.

Why don't you learn to debate.

It must get tiresome...you having to carry the moral weight for the rest of us. I can't thank you enough for being the truly egalitarian representative for the rest of us who are clearly lacking your superior compass.

 

[Lectro]

mosques have infiltrated by the FBI. Imans going to a convention about bigotry are taken off planes. Muslims who have peacefullt live in TN for over thirty years are denied the right to build a community. They are told their faith isn't aa failth.

Sorry, Hassan being about PC nonsense. It's about incompetence.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I speak with command level military people on a regular basis and the PC analysis is spot on in this case.

 

[TWDeac]

You have no idea what you are talking about. I speak with command level military people on a regular basis and the PC analysis is spot on in this case.

 

[Lectro]

Nah, nothing so special as that...

Just a fact that I do communicate with military command level officers on a regular basis.

No big deal there. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Why don't you learn to debate.

It must get tiresome...you having to carry the moral weight for the rest of us. I can't thank you enough for being the truly egalitarian representative for the rest of us who are clearly lacking your superior compass.

Why should I or anyone else need or have to debate about 1. Whether religious intolerance occurs against the Muslim community at large in America, and 2. Whether an American Muslim has room to complain about said religious intolerance. It's a simple premise, which doesn't need to be twisted and made complicated for the purpose of debate. Religious intolerance against Muslims in America most certainly does occur: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/09/plans-build-tennessee-islamic-centers/
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/09/muslim_and_america_nine_years.html
http://www.sacbee.com/2011/05/16/3630138/cair-asks-fbi-to-probe-texas-mosque.html

Once we've objectively accepted the fact that intolerance occurs, are we supposed to debate whether it's ok or not? Whether Muslims have the right to talk about it in a newspaper?