Next year’s football team

[deacon14]

hartman has been pretty bad in big games. would note that the BC game last year was definitely a big game, and actually think he played pretty well against clemson. i just don't think there's much evidence that any of that is truly predictive.

There's a difference in a game being big like against BC or Rutgers, which are very important games to win against bad teams, and a game being big like against Pitt or Clemson, which are very important games to win against good teams.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Yes, we won that game, but I'd pretty heavily push back against the notion that Hartman led us to that win. He threw 3 picks with a completion percentage of 42.6%.

On the most important drive of that game, when the score was 38-35 Wake with 8:05 remaining, we ran the ball 8 times out of 14 plays on the way to a touchdown that took 6:20 off the clock. On that drive, Hartman was 2/4 for 26 yards, with a 9 yard rush, and he took a sack. So at the most important moment in the game, Hartman was not who we relied on to go win us that game.

Giving Hartman a little credit on that last drive, he converted two 3rd and longs:

3rd & 7 at the Wake 28 - 12 yards
3rd & 9 at the Wake 41 - 14 yards

Jacquarii Roberson was out for that game and AT Perry had 5 catches on something like 19 targets.

 

[deacon14]

I'm very happy for Biff that he finally got another chance to remind us that Wake football ain't shit. It's been a few weeks.

I don't pay close enough attention to know if Biff does this all the time and is trying to troll, but what he's saying is legitimate IMO. Hartman is not a perfect QB, and he has had struggles that are worthy of being talked about.

That doesn't take away from the fact that Hartman is a very good QB and Wake had/has a very good football team in 2021 and in 2022.

 

[Biff Tannen]

I'm very happy for Biff that he finally got another chance to remind us that Wake football ain't shit. It's been a few weeks.

It's not my fault that Sam and the Deacs lost to Clemson my 60.

 

[deacon14]

Giving Hartman a little credit on that last drive, he converted two 3rd and longs:

3rd & 7 at the Wake 28 - 12 yards
3rd & 9 at the Wake 41 - 14 yards

Jacquarii Roberson was out for that game and AT Perry had 5 catches on something like 19 targets.

Yeah, that context is fair and adds something to Hartman's performance. I still don't think you can call a comp % of 42.6 and 3 INTs against a ranked rival team at home leading our team to a win.

He forced the ball to AT Perry 22 (!!) times, which resulted in 5 catches. Even if some of those were bad drops by Perry (I only remember a few of those) it's Sam's fault that he kept exclusively throwing the ball to Perry.

 

[Complacent Deac]

The UNC-CH game was a very big game and losing it really hurt our national perception going into the CFP rankings. BTW, we were playing Carolina and we were undefeated so it was a big game.

True.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Sam Hartman against Clemson >>> JT Daniels against Clemson

 

[thatguy2016]

Yeah, that context is fair and adds something to Hartman's performance. I still don't think you can call a comp % of 42.6 and 3 INTs against a ranked rival team at home leading our team to a win.

He forced the ball to AT Perry 22 (!!) times, which resulted in 5 catches. Even if some of those were bad drops by Perry (I only remember a few of those) it's Sam's fault that he kept exclusively throwing the ball to Perry.

should have targeted Roberson, right?

 

[deacon14]

should have targeted Roberson, right?

I mean Taylor Morin, Ke'Shawn Williams, and Donald Stewart are pretty good football players.

Also Roberson did have one reception in that game according to ESPN (although if I remember correctly his snaps were seriously limited by injury).

 

[IAppreciateIt]

yeah, roberson (and williams) both got hurt. perry (and banks, not sure anyone else) had a crazy amount of drops that game.

i don't know the exact specifics of how ESPN calcs the NCAA QBR, but for those curious the metric almost always includes rushing, quality of opponent defense and discounts garbage time.

 

[thatguy2016]

I mean Taylor Morin, Ke'Shawn Williams, and Donald Stewart are pretty good football players.

Also Roberson did have one reception in that game according to ESPN (although if I remember correctly his snaps were seriously limited by injury).

Roberson's minutes were severely limited, yes. Morin, Stewart, Chapman, Perry, Ellison all caught balls in the 4th quarter. Hartman also ran for 20 yards in the 4th quarter, which was pretty important.

Hartman's team won the game. Most would say it was a big game for both quarterbacks. Not as big as the ACC championship, but everyone knew you had to win that one to get to the ACC championship.

 

[deacon14]

Roberson's minutes were severely limited, yes. Morin, Stewart, Chapman, Perry, Turner all caught balls in the 4th quarter. Hartman also ran for 20 yards in the 4th quarter, which was pretty important.

Hartman's team won the game. Most would say it was a big game for both quarterbacks. Not as big as the ACC championship, but everyone knew you had to win that one to get to the ACC championship.

Hartman played good enough for us to win the game. Didn't really think I needed to say that because it's so obvious. That does not mean Hartman played perfectly, or even well, and I'm sure there are aspects of that game he wishes he had performed better.

Why are some of you guys unable to have a discussion about one of our star player's flaws/less than stellar performances? Nobody is sitting here saying that Hartman sucks. I'm not here trying to predict that Hartman will continue to suck in important games. We are all Wake fans here, you don't have to defend Hartman to me just because I critically looked at some of his performances.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

I pretty strongly disagree with calling the UVA game a bigger game than the UNC one. Regardless of final records of each team, I think it's fair to say that UNC was a better team last year than UVA. Wake fans/players consider UNC a rival and not UVA. And the UNC game was much later in the year when we were (for the first time ever) undefeated and in the CFP conversation.

You are 100% correct. It seems self-obvious that when we're 8-0, have the highest ranking in modern school history, are getting dark-horse CFP talk, and are playing in the national ABC broadcast against our biggest rival, that's a bigger game than going into Charlottesville unranked at 3-0 on a Friday night. The importance of a game is measured by its circumstances in that moment, not by a retrospective view of its impact.

Unless I'm mistaken, any loss would have knocked us out of the ACCCG. Beating NC State to become the prohibitive favorite for the division was a much bigger game than beating FSU in the conference opener. BC and Maryland in 2006 were much bigger games than Duke, even though a loss in any of the three would have kept us from winning the division.

 

[thatguy2016]

Hartman played good enough for us to win the game. Didn't really think I needed to say that because it's so obvious. That does not mean Hartman played perfectly, or even well, and I'm sure there are aspects of that game he wishes he had performed better.

Why are some of you guys unable to have a discussion about one of our star player's flaws/less than stellar performances? Nobody is sitting here saying that Hartman sucks. I'm not here trying to predict that Hartman will continue to suck in important games. We are all Wake fans here, you don't have to defend Hartman to me just because I critically looked at some of his performances.

I'm cool having a discussion. I agreed that the team, including Hartman, has generally not performed well in big games, such as the ACC championship.

Neither Leary nor TVD has performed...at all... in a game as big as the ACC championship. Thus my TBD comment.

 

[Tobacco Road]

Sam Hartman against Clemson >>> JT Daniels against Clemson

It would be interesting to magically know what the trajectory of last season would have been if Clemson had won that game. At the time, it appeared that the ACC's best team was beaten by an SEC team that was the conference's superior team. It really shaped perceptions even though both of those assumptions were wrong and UGA struggled to win.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Once The Mailman stepped in it was almost all downhill for Georgia.

 

[skinnydeac]

I'm cool having a discussion. I agreed that the team, including Hartman, has generally not performed well in big games, such as the ACC championship.

Neither Leary nor TVD has performed...at all... in a game as big as the ACC championship. Thus my TBD comment.

This is kind of where I'm at with Leary and TVD. Leary is efficient, but has never seemed spectacular. Didn't they score 17 in regulation vs Clemson? It's not like he went out and won the game by putting up 50 on them. I'm wondering what kind of numbers he will put up without Emezie as a safety net.

TVD seems to be getting all this attention based on potential. He has only played 3/4 of a season. Some really good games, some kind of bad games. He might end up being great, but it might just be more Miami hype.

 

[Pilchard]

It would be interesting to magically know what the trajectory of last season would have been if Clemson had won that game. At the time, it appeared that the ACC's best team was beaten by an SEC team that was the conference's superior team. It really shaped perceptions even though both of those assumptions were wrong and UGA struggled to win.

In retrospect, UGA was the superior team (Clemson was a small favorite in the game), but if it was UGA with the turnover that became a score, Clemson could've stolen that game. After that game, UGA got better, and Clemson got worse. Given their recent history, Clemson's primary goal each year was to get into the CFP, and Clemson went through the motions for most of the season after that. They did pick it up at the end of the season, and played well against WF, S. Carolina and Iowa State in the bowl game.

 

[CamLemons]

Yeah, that context is fair and adds something to Hartman's performance. I still don't think you can call a comp % of 42.6 and 3 INTs against a ranked rival team at home leading our team to a win.

He forced the ball to AT Perry 22 (!!) times, which resulted in 5 catches. Even if some of those were bad drops by Perry (I only remember a few of those) it's Sam's fault that he kept exclusively throwing the ball to Perry.

PFF has it as 19 targets and 3 drops for Perry in that game just as a comparison. A lot of those targets were.. not the best throws and Clawson acknowledged both postgame and in the pre-Clemson presser that Hartman wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination

Key got banged up as well and only played 10 snaps but having Morin/Stewart/Banks/Chapman/Whiteheart COMBINE for 19 targets is just bad process

 

[Pilchard]

FanDuel has lines out for the marquee games for the upcoming football season. This includes Clemson at WF on September 24. FD has the early line at Clemson -10. Last year, Clemson was a 3.5 point favorite hosting the Deacs.

Also, a sportsbook in Las Vegas offered lines on even more games, and it included WF -8 at L'ville. The line was promptly bet down to WF -4.