Official OGBoards Golf Thread

[tigerswood]

Good feedback here, thanks for the suggestions. I spoke with my brother last night and we noticed another false score had been posted yesterday evening, after my post on here. This time is was an 80 fucking 3. I decided to go head and speak with the course pro this morning and clear our names from it. Again, my brothers HC is the only one thats ever been questioned, so I do know folks watch his scores. Everyone knows the 3 of us always play together too, so the question of "why is one of you posting scores and the other two are not" was coming. I want no part of it. We live in a small town and my brother is a real estate agent that lives on the course, not risking the tarnished reputation that comes with cheating. We'll see how this plays out, but you can't have someone on the tournament committee thats blatantly cheating, not to mention the club champion.

This is a bizarre situation. Is there a lot of cash involved in your net games/tournaments? Is this guy hurting personally/professionally? It's almost impossible with the new handicap structure for a low handicapper to see much of a jump up, unless he plays bad for a very long stretch.

Do you guys ITT have gross prizes (cash/credit) associated with your club tournaments? I've been very fortunate over the last ~6 years that the majority of our tourneys have paid a decent chunk of change for gross, as I usually have zero chance at net. It's a hell of a lot easier for a 15 handicap to shoot 80 than it is for me to shoot 63 (or 67). However, we don't have that may low handicappers who consistently play in club events, so the same 5-6 guys were typically cashing over and over.

I think enough people complained and the club is doing away with gross cash prizes altogether. They still throw a bit of shop credit or a door prize in there occasionally. And they're also putting a minimum handicap of 10 per team for 4some tourneys (this I think is smart). In theory, the handicap system should put everyone on equal footing, but everyone knows that's not the case, especially for low handicappers.

Oh and they're also using 12 month low handicap for every tournament, which is ridiculous to me. If you have a handicap committee in place, and everything is above board, use the current handicaps. It's especially brutal for people coming off significant injuries/surgeries.

 

[DCDeac]

Ha yeah the Calcutta at the club near me hits $30k or more every year. They banned a member for life for sandbagging once, you can definitely get your ass legit beaten if you cheat.

I have a friend who does the same thing with regards to posting bullshit scores. He's a +1 who messed around in the mini tours when he was younger. Now he's old and has kids but is still good for the occasional 65. He has to keep an index active to play in tournaments, but he's not trying to be a +4 or whatever, because the handicap system is so hopelessly skewed in favor of higher handicaps that it becomes impossible to just play normal fun competitive rounds against friends. So you'll see the occasional 78 go up on a day that he didn't play, and maybe he's just posting it a day late and didn't change the date correctly. If he gets hot in a casual round he's not posting his 64 for example, but it's not tournament golf and we're hitting extra shots on occasion.

Considering he's your buddy I'd probably let him know folks are watching and use an example like the specific round at the club where people knew he turned in an extra/wrong score, or that someone at the club knew a score got turned in after a captain's choice round. In reality if the dude is a +1 already a few 78's won't have any impact on his index because they won't be factored in at all. He's probably just playing fast and loose with the dates or specifics just to enter something based roughly on how he played.

There's really no hiding a +1 in handicapped tournaments. What, he's "really" a plus 2 or 3? He's gonna enter 11 more consecutive fake scores to move the needle? He's either winning gross events or getting destroyed by those magic 7's folks are talking about above regardless - the guys that are talented enough to be scratch but instead keep it in that 6-8 zone. They crush it.

 

[Screamindemon3]

This is a bizarre situation. Is there a lot of cash involved in your net games/tournaments? Is this guy hurting personally/professionally? It's almost impossible with the new handicap structure for a low handicapper to see much of a jump up, unless he plays bad for a very long stretch.

Do you guys ITT have gross prizes (cash/credit) associated with your club tournaments? I've been very fortunate over the last ~6 years that the majority of our tourneys have paid a decent chunk of change for gross, as I usually have zero chance at net. It's a hell of a lot easier for a 15 handicap to shoot 80 than it is for me to shoot 63 (or 67). However, we don't have that may low handicappers who consistently play in club events, so the same 5-6 guys were typically cashing over and over.

I think enough people complained and the club is doing away with gross cash prizes altogether. They still throw a bit of shop credit or a door prize in there occasionally. And they're also putting a minimum handicap of 10 per team for 4some tourneys (this I think is smart). In theory, the handicap system should put everyone on equal footing, but everyone knows that's not the case, especially for low handicappers.

Oh and they're also using 12 month low handicap for every tournament, which is ridiculous to me. If you have a handicap committee in place, and everything is above board, use the current handicaps. It's especially brutal for people coming off significant injuries/surgeries.

We do payout 1st gross and 1st/2nd net for almost all tournaments. I honestly think it's not about the money at all for him. He is 100% posturing for the Member/Guest in June. This is simply about reducing the amount of strokes he has to give in the MG tournament.

Our MG format: 6 teams per flight, 5 nine hole match play matches, best ball. Win the hole its a point, tie the hole its .5, lose and its 0. Get a bonus point for winning the match. The point cap for any one match is 7 points. So once you win 6 holes, which would also mean you won the match, you cant score more than 7 points. Team with the most points at the end of round robin advances to the shootout vs the winners of the other flights.

You stroke off of the lowest HC player for your specific match, so he is just trying to reduce the amount of strokes given in each 9 hole match.

 

[PaddyWF]

I'm not much of a golfer, though I've played in a handful of tournaments over the years and regularly volunteer on a couple of fundraiser tournaments. And it may just be the level of tournaments and/or prestige of the clubs I've dealt with, but the whole sandbag thing has always puzzled me, b/c the "payoff" is usually an extra $100 tops gift card in the pro shop, or a cheesy trophy and your name on a plaque in the club bar. Am I missing something, or are there other benefits from sandbagging your way to a championship or higher finish? I've never done the pre-tournament Calcutta bets, so maybe that's where the payoff is?

You got it. It is cheating to win. Whether the prize is cash or just a cheap trophy.

People hate cheating and get pissed off if they suspect someone is. If its a small club or group that all knows each other, families are friends, own businesses in town, etc... it can sour things quickly if sandbagging comes into play. Everyone knows who does it, and its like a big stain that you can't get off. It can get ugly.

 

[Deac6]

Ha yeah the Calcutta at the club near me hits $30k or more every year. They banned a member for life for sandbagging once, you can definitely get your ass legit beaten if you cheat.

I have a friend who does the same thing with regards to posting bullshit scores. He's a +1 who messed around in the mini tours when he was younger. Now he's old and has kids but is still good for the occasional 65. He has to keep an index active to play in tournaments, but he's not trying to be a +4 or whatever, because the handicap system is so hopelessly skewed in favor of higher handicaps that it becomes impossible to just play normal fun competitive rounds against friends. So you'll see the occasional 78 go up on a day that he didn't play, and maybe he's just posting it a day late and didn't change the date correctly. If he gets hot in a casual round he's not posting his 64 for example, but it's not tournament golf and we're hitting extra shots on occasion.

Considering he's your buddy I'd probably let him know folks are watching and use an example like the specific round at the club where people knew he turned in an extra/wrong score, or that someone at the club knew a score got turned in after a captain's choice round. In reality if the dude is a +1 already a few 78's won't have any impact on his index because they won't be factored in at all. He's probably just playing fast and loose with the dates or specifics just to enter something based roughly on how he played.

There's really no hiding a +1 in handicapped tournaments. What, he's "really" a plus 2 or 3? He's gonna enter 11 more consecutive fake scores to move the needle? He's either winning gross events or getting destroyed by those magic 7's folks are talking about above regardless - the guys that are talented enough to be scratch but instead keep it in that 6-8 zone. They crush it.

State actually shut down the Calcutta at the place I am a guest at it got so out of control. Much tamer now, but still a good chunk of cash exchanging hands and paramutuals, but the tournament chair gets to basically set the markers on it.

The more I was thinking about it, it's not as much as what he has to gain or hiding him, as much as him taking from his competitors. He'll be the lowest in the group so they'll be playing off of him, if he scoots up a smidgen, that takes away an extra stroke from their competitors most likely.

 

[Screamindemon3]

We do payout 1st gross and 1st/2nd net for almost all tournaments. I honestly think it's not about the money at all for him. He is 100% posturing for the Member/Guest in June. This is simply about reducing the amount of strokes he has to give in the MG tournament.

Our MG format: 6 teams per flight, 5 nine hole match play matches, best ball. Win the hole its a point, tie the hole its .5, lose and its 0. Get a bonus point for winning the match. The point cap for any one match is 7 points. So once you win 6 holes, which would also mean you won the match, you cant score more than 7 points. Team with the most points at the end of round robin advances to the shootout vs the winners of the other flights.

You stroke off of the lowest HC player for your specific match, so he is just trying to reduce the amount of strokes given in each 9 hole match.

And by payout I mean shop credit. It's not cash. So all you can really buy is gear or some balls. I guess you could save up for a bag, but shop credit clears at the end of the year, so it's not like you can save up for 2-3 years.

 

[Deac6]

We do payout 1st gross and 1st/2nd net for almost all tournaments. I honestly think it's not about the money at all for him. He is 100% posturing for the Member/Guest in June. This is simply about reducing the amount of strokes he has to give in the MG tournament.

Our MG format: 6 teams per flight, 5 nine hole match play matches, best ball. Win the hole its a point, tie the hole its .5, lose and its 0. Get a bonus point for winning the match. The point cap for any one match is 7 points. So once you win 6 holes, which would also mean you won the match, you cant score more than 7 points. Team with the most points at the end of round robin advances to the shootout vs the winners of the other flights.

You stroke off of the lowest HC player for your specific match, so he is just trying to reduce the amount of strokes given in each 9 hole match.

There it is. I should have just hit refresh.

 

[Screamindemon3]

State actually shut down the Calcutta at the place I am a guest at it got so out of control. Much tamer now, but still a good chunk of cash exchanging hands and paramutuals, but the tournament chair gets to basically set the markers on it.

The more I was thinking about it, it's not as much as what he has to gain or hiding him, as much as him taking from his competitors. He'll be the lowest in the group so they'll be playing off of him, if he scoots up a smidgen, that takes away an extra stroke from their competitors most likely.

Worded it better than I did, this is it.

 

[PaddyWF]

@Screamindemon3 Think you did the right thing trying to get ahead of this. Did you talk to TJ first? It would make me feel better about going to the pro if he had a lame excuse or flat-out denies vs. owning up to it, first.

Either way, you need to distance yourself from this. It sounds like it's a town club and you probably know a lot of people there or your family does. You don't want to get in a mess with this, just not worth it to win a few bucks.

A couple other posters had a good point. It is usually the dude who is like a ~7 hcp that is closer to scratch that cleans up. Can't think of many plus-hcp that try to bump up. I mean multiple 80s from a plus-hcp ahead of a big tourney is going to make me raise my eyebrow a bit unless he's coming off injury or going through a major swing change or something.

Let us know how this concludes.

 

[PaddyWF]

This is a bizarre situation. Is there a lot of cash involved in your net games/tournaments? Is this guy hurting personally/professionally? It's almost impossible with the new handicap structure for a low handicapper to see much of a jump up, unless he plays bad for a very long stretch.

Do you guys ITT have gross prizes (cash/credit) associated with your club tournaments? I've been very fortunate over the last ~6 years that the majority of our tourneys have paid a decent chunk of change for gross, as I usually have zero chance at net. It's a hell of a lot easier for a 15 handicap to shoot 80 than it is for me to shoot 63 (or 67). However, we don't have that may low handicappers who consistently play in club events, so the same 5-6 guys were typically cashing over and over.

I think enough people complained and the club is doing away with gross cash prizes altogether. They still throw a bit of shop credit or a door prize in there occasionally. And they're also putting a minimum handicap of 10 per team for 4some tourneys (this I think is smart). In theory, the handicap system should put everyone on equal footing, but everyone knows that's not the case, especially for low handicappers.

Oh and they're also using 12 month low handicap for every tournament, which is ridiculous to me. If you have a handicap committee in place, and everything is above board, use the current handicaps. It's especially brutal for people coming off significant injuries/surgeries.

That seems kind of odd to me. I would expect the same 5-6 guys to win gross every year, cause they are the best players. So members were upset there was a net and gross division? Or just that the gross payout was much higher?

 

[Biff Tannen]

So the guy's name is TJ ?

 

[Screamindemon3]

@Screamindemon3 Think you did the right thing trying to get ahead of this. Did you talk to TJ first? It would make me feel better about going to the pro if he had a lame excuse or flat-out denies vs. owning up to it, first.

Either way, you need to distance yourself from this. It sounds like it's a town club and you probably know a lot of people there or your family does. You don't want to get in a mess with this, just not worth it to win a few bucks.

A couple other posters had a good point. It is usually the dude who is like a ~7 hcp that is closer to scratch that cleans up. Can't think of many plus-hcp that try to bump up. I mean multiple 80s from a plus-hcp ahead of a big tourney is going to make me raise my eyebrow a bit unless he's coming off injury or going through a major swing change or something.

Let us know how this concludes.

No, I didn't talk to him before speaking with the pro this morning. If it was just the non-postable round(s) that were in question, sure, of course I would have, but three of the last five scores are rounds that the pro can see are fake without involving any other members (playing partners). The rounds were never played. It's as simple as confirming that he wasn't on the tee sheet for the given day a score was posted. Like you said, this is a smaller club, and he has a parking space for being the club champion, theres no "oh maybe he played without anyone noticing". It's black and white obvious for the pro to see them as false postings.

Since there were 3 false postings for rounds that never happened, the pro said he'd handle this as if he discovered it on his own. He also went into the details of GHIN and said on their side, they can see much more than the golfer realizes. Time posted, device posted with, IP address where the score was posted, which was pretty neat.

 

[Screamindemon3]

So the guy's name is TJ ?

No I made that up

 

[TAG1615]

No, I didn't talk to him before speaking with the pro this morning. If it was just the non-postable round(s) that were in question, sure, of course I would have, but three of the last five scores are rounds that the pro can see are fake without involving any other members (playing partners). The rounds were never played. It's as simple as confirming that he wasn't on the tee sheet for the given day a score was posted. Like you said, this is a smaller club, and he has a parking space for being the club champion, theres no "oh maybe he played without anyone noticing". It's black and white obvious for the pro to see them as false postings.

Since there were 3 false postings for rounds that never happened, the pro said he'd handle this as if he discovered it on his own. He also went into the details of GHIN and said on their side, they can see much more than the golfer realizes. Time posted, device posted with, IP address where the score was posted, which was pretty neat.

Snitching on your friend before you even talked to him seems...idk. I guess you are never going to play with him again.

 

[DCDeac]

Just as background, and Tigerswood hit on this some, since a lot of people just assume your handicap index is an average of all your scores and/or playing off a handicap makes for fair competition...

First, only your best 8 of 20 scores count. It's very easy to lower your index, very hard to raise it. Scratch or better guys have to either give up completely on ever shooting under par rounds on the regular or they are never going to really jack up their handicaps to any meaningful level for handicap play. Tossing in the occasional fake score literally makes no difference at all unless you really commit to throwing in a ton of them.

Second, simply put - the better you are the harder it is to beat your handicap. The USGA had some odds posted for how likely it is to beat your handicap, but even those are skewed (and start at 0-5 as a bucket). A +1 should beat his index by 3 or 4 strokes like once a year if you're playing twice a week. An 8/9 is closer to 1 in 30 rounds, especially if that player is one of the folks we're talking about that can easily clean up a few strokes here and there when playing an important round.

On top of all that, a ton of these tournaments are match play or have some way of ensuring that blow-up holes don't ruin someone's tournament, otherwise no high cappers would play and there'd be no money/fun to be had. But again, for consistent low cap players, it's just another edge given to the high cappers. You make 3 pars and go 1 down to a guy who goes quad/bogey/par. There's just no real point to shuffling around in that plus index world to win handicapped fields.

 

[Screamindemon3]

Snitching on your friend before you even talked to him seems...idk. I guess you are never going to play with him again.

Yeah I'm with you, but idk if snitching is the right word or not. Guess it half way is. Again, my name is tied to this as well since we already have 3 tournaments on the schedule together, including two in March. I think if it was an isolated incident or two, you're right, we go to him directly and work it out. Five over the course of a month and three in the same week? Fuck that.

I led off the conversation with "I don't want to lose a friend but I also want to respect the integrity of our club tournaments which is why I'm reporting this" and the pro was very appreciative and said he'd handle it anonymously, as with others in the past. So I guess we'll see.

 

[TAG1615]

Yeah I'm with you, but idk if snitching is the right word or not. Guess it half way is. Again, my name is tied to this as well since we already have 3 tournaments on the schedule together, including two in March. I think if it was an isolated incident or two, you're right, we go to him directly and work it out. Five over the course of a month and three in the same week? Fuck that.

I led off the conversation with "I don't want to lose a friend but I also want to respect the integrity of our club tournaments which is why I'm reporting this" and the pro was very appreciative and said he'd handle it anonymously, as with others in the past. So I guess we'll see.

I don't know you, your friends, or your club. I also rarely play tournament golf. But if I play 40 rounds a year with a guy and he thinks I'm cheating, I would expect him to come to me about that before snitching to a random club pro. I would have to imagine that that the club pro is really annoyed with you know for dumping this on his plate. It is a pretty brutal position for the club pro to have to call out a member for cheating when that member partially pays his salary/bonusses.

Edited to add: I hope it all works out for the best. Tricky situation, for sure.

 

[Screamindemon3]

I don't know you, your friends, or your club. I also rarely play tournament golf. But if I play 40 rounds a year with a guy and he thinks I'm cheating, I would expect him to come to me about that before snitching to a random club pro. I would have to imagine that that the club pro is really annoyed with you know for dumping this on his plate. It is a pretty brutal position for the club pro to have to call out a member for cheating when that member partially pays his salary/bonusses.

Edited to add: I hope it all works out for the best. Tricky situation, for sure.

Looks like it was just addressed via email.

TJ,

I have deleted a home score you posted for Sunday for an 83. We don’t show that you were on the tee sheet for that day, and we don’t have your scorecard.  If you did play and have a scorecard, I will re-enter it for you.  I have also removed the duplicate 81 that was posted on Saturday, along with the 78 from earlier in the month. We do have a policy of the pro shop posting all home scores for our members.  If you complete your round after we are gone, just leave it in the drop box for us.

As always, I am copying xxx, our handicap chairman on all handicap matters, as well.

 

[Screamindemon3]

That's the best outcome, IMO. It doesn't address the two false score from non-postable formats, but at least he knows that the pro is aware of what's going on.

 

[tigerswood]

That seems kind of odd to me. I would expect the same 5-6 guys to win gross every year, cause they are the best players. So members were upset there was a net and gross division? Or just that the gross payout was much higher?

Typically, for non-flighted tournaments, it would be like top 4 or 5 net, top 2 or 3 gross. Net payout overall would be a bit bigger with a couple more slots paid, but individual payouts similar. I assume the thinking is it's not fair for ~100 players competing for 4 net spots while, realistically, there are maybe 8 players with a chance at low gross.

Flighted tournaments might pay 1st, 2nd Net and 1st Gross per flight plus overall prizes.