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Ongoing NC GOP debacle thread

RChildress107 said:
The Charlotte ordinance was designed to protect transgender women from getting the shit kicked out of them (or worse) in the men's room.
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But was that actually a problem? I'd never heard of a transgender getting beat up in a Charlotte bathroom. As I said earlier on this thread, this whole ordinance seems like a "look at me, I'm so special" posturing to fix a problem that didn't exist, which blew up in everyone's face.

Plus, there is an easy alternative to this shitshow. Just admit that the crosswiring of being transgender is a disability, and anyone would have an immediate right to use the reasonable accommodation of the gender-identified bathroom under the ADA. :couch:
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
But was that actually a problem? I'd never heard of a transgender getting beat up in a Charlotte bathroom. As I said earlier on this thread, this whole ordinance seems like a "look at me, I'm so special" posturing to fix a problem that didn't exist, which blew up in everyone's face.

Plus, there is an easy alternative to this shitshow. Just admit that the crosswiring of being transgender is a disability, and anyone would have an immediate right to use the reasonable accommodation of the gender-identified bathroom under the ADA. :couch:
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Or just treat it as sex discrimination like the federal government.

As to the bold:

I don't have Charlotte specific statistics, but a 2011 study found that 10% of transgender individuals reported being physically attacked for using the "wrong" bathroom. A 2013 study of the Washington D.C. area echoed this finding.

There have also been studies showing that suicide rates among trans-youth rise when access to bathrooms is denied.
 
It would honestly take you less than 30 minutes of research (or a basic understanding of human behavior) to realize that transgender individuals face extraordinary amounts of discrimination in their day to day lives.
 
RChildress107 said:
It would honestly take you less than 30 minutes of research (or a basic understanding of human behavior) to realize that transgender individuals face extraordinary amounts of discrimination in their day to day lives.
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No doubt, I'm sure they do. But on my personal list of groups to be concerned about, they are pretty far down. There are a lot more people with actual disabilities who need societal improvements much more desperately and face more structural discrimination than a dude who doesn't like his dick. That fact that our government (both local and state, and on both sides) is wasting its time with this bullshit relative to the extent of the "problem" is the worst part about this whole fiasco. This whole thing is straight out of an Allen Iverson press conference. We have mentally handicapped people, blind people, deaf people, physically handicapped people, poorly educated people, illiterate people ... and we're spending all of this time talking about trannies?
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
No doubt, I'm sure they do. But on my personal list of groups to be concerned about, they are pretty far down. There are a lot more people with actual disabilities who need societal improvements much more desperately and face more structural discrimination than a dude who doesn't like his dick. That fact that our government (both local and state, and on both sides) is wasting its time with this bullshit relative to the extent of the "problem" is the worst part about this whole fiasco. This whole thing is straight out of an Allen Iverson press conference. We have mentally handicapped people, blind people, deaf people, physically handicapped people, poorly educated people, illiterate people ... and we're spending all of this time talking about trannies?
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Right, and most of these people are already taken care of by the ADA.

Being gay or transgender is not a "disability", and it's a shame people want to paint them that way.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
No doubt, I'm sure they do. But on my personal list of groups to be concerned about, they are pretty far down. There are a lot more people with actual disabilities who need societal improvements much more desperately and face more structural discrimination than a dude who doesn't like his dick. That fact that our government (both local and state, and on both sides) is wasting its time with this bullshit relative to the extent of the "problem" is the worst part about this whole fiasco. This whole thing is straight out of an Allen Iverson press conference. We have mentally handicapped people, blind people, deaf people, physically handicapped people, poorly educated people, illiterate people ... and we're spending all of this time talking about trannies?
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All of the bold are currently protected under various anti-discrimination laws. All of the groups you listed face tremendous difficulties in their day-to-day lives. I'm all for any government policy that helps ease those difficulties or removes the societal barriers placed in front of these groups of people that makes it more difficult for them to contribute to society. That includes transgender individuals. They are no less human, and their difficulties no less real, than any of the groups you just mentioned.

I would encourage you to do 30 minutes of reading on transgender individuals or god forbid actually sit down and talk with a transgender individual. If after that you still think a transgender woman is just "some dude who doesn't like his dick" then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. You don't have to understand or even agree with the way transgender individuals live their lives in order to educate yourself on what it means to be transgender.
 
They're just trying to go to the bathroom in peace. You don't even have to educate yourself or sympathize with them to allow them that.
 
Yeah this is just the "don't be an asshole" rule. Yet again.

As to "Charlotte was addressing a problem that doesn't exist" do you believe that there wasn't an issue because the ongoing practice was that people who look like men are peeing in men's bathrooms and people who look like women are peeing in women's bathrooms? If that's the case, then the law was passed to provide protection for what was already occurring. This is no reason to then rollback the ordinance and change what was already occurring (if you think there wasn't any issue previously before the ordinance was passed).
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Yeah this is just the "don't be an asshole" rule. Yet again.

As to "Charlotte was addressing a problem that doesn't exist" do you believe that there wasn't an issue because the ongoing practice was that people who look like men are peeing in men's bathrooms and people who look like women are peeing in women's bathrooms? If that's the case, then the law was passed to provide protection for what was already occurring. This is no reason to then rollback the ordinance and change what was already occurring (if you think there wasn't any issue previously before the ordinance was passed).
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Most of the people I have talked to who have issue with the Charlotte bathroom law were not concerned about the transgender population but the population of straight male perverts who would use the law to get into the women's restroom. Their thinking is that under the current law not a lot of men who look like men can claim to have any reason or right to be in the women's restroom, their concerns are that the straight male pervs can just claim to identify as a women and legally be in the women's restroom.

I am personally more concerned about everyone losing the right to sue their employer for discrimination in state court.
 
And that was something not worth worrying about at least before the law. Now trans dude pervs are legally obligated to go to the women's bathroom.
 
olddke said:
Most of the people I have talked to who have issue with the Charlotte bathroom law were not concerned about the transgender population but the population of straight male perverts who would use the law to get into the women's restroom. Their thinking is that under the current law not a lot of men who look like men can claim to have any reason or right to be in the women's restroom, their concerns are that the straight male pervs can just claim to identify as a women and legally be in the women's restroom.

I am personally more concerned about everyone losing the right to sue their employer for discrimination in state court.
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How often does this occur? Are there any numbers out there on it?

Probably much less than politicians soliciting sex in restrooms.

I agree with you. The biggest problems with the bill have absolutely nothing to do with a bathroom at all...but the inability to sue in NC, and the blatant discrimination against people who don't fall under a protected class.
 
I'm still hung up on why criminals would follow the law in this case but every other case the argument is "criminals never follow the law"
 
olddke said:
I am personally more concerned about everyone losing the right to sue their employer for discrimination in state court.
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I asked before, but is there precedent for legislatures limiting the right to sue in civil court for other illegal issues?
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I'm still hung up on why criminals would follow the law in this case but every other case the argument is "criminals never follow the law"
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To play devil's advocate, if men are allowed in a women's restroom, a male predator would be able to "blend in" more easily.

A parallel would be in open-carry states - It's much harder to tell the law abiding gun carriers from the criminals, and then act on it. You can't just call the police when someone walks in to a 7-11 in Texas with a gun.
 
PhDeac said:
They're just trying to go to the bathroom in peace. You don't even have to educate yourself or sympathize with them to allow them that.
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Sure, and by all accounts they were doing that perfectly well until they decided they needed an ordinance to bring it to the attention of the rest of the general public.

This is like if Wake went to the ACC and said "hey, we know that we get the same share of postseason money as everyone else even though we contribute absolutely nothing to it, but we'd like to make sure that our check is cut the same exact day as Duke and Carolina's, because we have some things we want to buy." Would anyone be surprised if the rest of the ACC said STFU, and by the way thanks for reminding us that you're still here, now we're going to re-think that equal sharing concept or you can GTFO. Of course not. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Sure, and by all accounts they were doing that perfectly well until they decided they needed an ordinance to bring it to the attention of the rest of the general public.

This is like if Wake went to the ACC and said "hey, we know that we get the same share of postseason money as everyone else even though we contribute absolutely nothing to it, but we'd like to make sure that our check is cut the same exact day as Duke and Carolina's, because we have some things we want to buy." Would anyone be surprised if the rest of the ACC said STFU, and by the way thanks for reminding us that you're still here, now we're going to re-think that equal sharing concept or you can GTFO. Of course not. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Wake doesn't need to do that because the fact that everyone is paid the same is already the "law" of the conference.

If X occurs and is normal and doesn't get people up in arms, then the fact that X is then enacted as an ordinance should never be a reason for people to then be opposed to X.
 
olddke said:
Most of the people I have talked to who have issue with the Charlotte bathroom law were not concerned about the transgender population but the population of straight male perverts who would use the law to get into the women's restroom. Their thinking is that under the current law not a lot of men who look like men can claim to have any reason or right to be in the women's restroom, their concerns are that the straight male pervs can just claim to identify as a women and legally be in the women's restroom.

I am personally more concerned about everyone losing the right to sue their employer for discrimination in state court.
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Except that thinking makes no sense. It's arguably easier to falsely claim that you were born a woman than it is to claim you identify as a woman. Transgender women (born male but identify as female) dress like women, so under the Charlotte ordinance a man who looks like a man would raise immediate suspicion if he went in a women's bathroom. Under HB2, transgender men, who dress and look like men, must use the women's room. So a man dressed like a man could simply claim he was born a woman if someone calls him out for being in the women's room.
 
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