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Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

DeacDiggler said:
just out of curiosity, what are the saudis getting out of this? other than a reputation for giving away money.
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Zero. That's what is so crazy. Greg and Phil have concocted a terrible and unsustainable product and are just fleecing the Saudis. All they're getting is bad press.
 
If you could get rid of the vendetta aspect of LIV golf against the PGA Tour and it's really inevitable that sports will defeat common decency, civil rights, etc. (and assuming the Saudis actually has any interest in LIV surviving longer than DJ's contract)...

With the silly season approaching, I do think you could have a LIV-type section of the year. Take the top 25 PGA, 15 DP, and sprinkle in a couple top amateurs turning pro and a couple outsiders. They make it into the LIV series which is like an extended Tourney of Champions after the Ryder/Presidents cup. The PGA Tour uses the slow period of the wraparound season and completion of KF to sort out cards and have some new up-and-comers get some wins. This essentially happens anyway in the current fields. Alternate 4 individual tourneys and 4 team tourneys, make the Tourney of Champions 2 days of each and everyone gets tons of money before the actual season starts at the Sony or whatever.
 
For every Talor Gooch, Jason Kokrak, and Charles Howell III, there are 200 guys just behind on the PGA Tour and Korn Ferry Tour ready to fill their spots. Except they are younger and probably have better long-term potential at this point. Some of those guys will blossom into stars and replenish the well (see, e.g., Young and Zalatoris). LIV will not substantially diminish the quality of the PGA Tour until it starts taking superstars like Rory, Spieth, JT, etc. Guys like Koepka and DJ were good gets, but they have not been on their game lately.

I did not realize that Greg Norman's first fight with "the establishment" was back in the 1980s when the United Nations did not want golfers playing in South Africa due to apartheid. His response was that he can play golf and make money wherever he wants. This is not a guy who cares about anything but himself and the almighty dollar (and killing the PGA Tour, it seems). I guess that's fine for some, but it is not consistent with the spirit of the game of golf. Maybe we have reached a point in our society where nothing matters other than money, but I don't think we should.
 
He's not the biggest name on tour sure, but to act like Cam smith is just another one of the liv defectors is crazy. He's in a vastly different state of his career than anyone else that has jumped ship. Him and Hideki are the first ones who are still competing at high level and have their best days maybe ahead of them. Bryson maybe could be here but he's been injured and a non factor for a year.
 
Here's how much it matters if Cam Smith is not playing the PGA Tour: Tiger barely plays the Tour anymore and the place is still functioning it appears. I think the PGA Tour might be able to survive that giant vacuum created by Cam Smith's exit. I mean come on.
 
The pga tour will survive. But it will be without a top tier talent, one that will presumably be in the mix in majors for the next 5 years. And he won't be the last one. If you'd open your eyes you'd realize that is a problem. It will not end the PGA tour, but it will hurt it to a degree.
 
If he's not there, someone else will be that top tier talent. Nobody will know the difference. It is golf. What, you think there's gonna be a winner and then nobody will finish within 10 shots in majors or other tournaments because Cam Smith is not playing?? Stroke avg for tour is going to suddenly be 78.6? It just doesnt work like that. Somebody else will be Cam Smith - INSTANTLY. They all can shoot lights out. Holy smokes it isnt difficult.
 
guitardeac said:
If he's not there, someone else will be that top tier talent. Nobody will know the difference. It is golf. What, you think there's gonna be a winner and then nobody will finish within 10 shots in majors or other tournaments because Cam Smith is not playing?? Stroke avg for tour is going to suddenly be 78.6? It just doesnt work like that. Somebody else will be Cam Smith - INSTANTLY. They all can shoot lights out. Holy smokes it isnt difficult.
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I agree. Here's the other thing to further your point. The LIV guys' skills are going to deteriorate after a while because they're only playing 12 exhibitions a year, and a few are going to play a major or 2 per year. At the Open after 1.5 months on the LIV, most of the LIV guys missed the cut, and only DJ contended. Playing 12 meaningless exhibitions is no way to hone your game and keep your edge. Then after 3 years on the LIV and after serving another year or so suspension, how many of these guys are really going to matter when they return to the PGA or DP? It's going to take a ton of work to get back to the top 20 or so after you've been a fat cat for a few years, and I don't think many will accomplish that feat.
 
Smith nearly won the Masters this year. He is second in FedEx points and second in OWGR. If he wins FedEx Cup and becomes number 1 in world in process, and then declares for LIV, that will be a huge blow to the PGAT.

Granted, lots of IFS in there, but not far fetched given how Smith has been playing.

The golf establishment will be pulling very hard against Cam Smith over the next couple of months. If he wins his next event, people will start losing their minds.
 
While Cam Smith has been very successful, I don't think very many people tune in to watch just because of him. People are confusing successful with popular / moves the needle. He's no JT. Rory. spieth. Etc. Being very, very good doesn't mean anyone really cares to tune in just because of you. Pga would obviously like him to stay. But they aren't losing a needle mover.
 
If Cam Smith moves to LIV at a time when he’s the number 1 or 2 ranked player in the world that is a needle mover in the world of perception and credibility. Slice it anyway you like but when a major winner in his prime moves that changes the game.
 
Shake said:
If Cam Smith moves to LIV at a time when he’s the number 1 or 2 ranked player in the world that is a needle mover in the world of perception and credibility. Slice it anyway you like but when a major winner in his prime moves that changes the game.
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I mean they already have DJ
 
If losing the 28 year old most recent major champ and undisputed a top 3 player doesn’t move the needle, that seems like a problem for golf in general. It should matter where the top players play.
 
Here is what would be weird to me about Cam Smith going to LIV. He lives a mile or so from the Tour HQs, and I'm pretty sure he does most of his practicing at the back range of TPC, which is probably one of the top practice facilities in the country. And there are a ton of Tour/Champions/Korn Ferry guys that practice and hang around together there. I don't know that he is going to dinner every night with the commissioner, but I would be shocked if he doesn't have a good relationship with a fair amount of area Tour and TPC staff plus a lot of current/future/former Tour players. If he bolts for LIV I'd imagine he becomes persona non grata around TPC Sawgrass. Maybe he moves cities or maybe he finds a new place to practice that isn't as nice as TPC, but I don't think he'd be able to continue the same routine that has put his game in the place it is today. Maybe $100M or whatever he could get is worth more than that, but I really think it could have an impact on his ability to stay at his current level or go to a higher level.
 
LOL. $100M is more than enough to buy new friends and plenty of tee times wherever he wants.

Charles Barkley is presumably still weighing an offer from LIV and will play in the upcoming pro-am at Bedminster.

He probably had the best answers to the criticism I’ve seen but not many people have the rep to get away with it like Chuck.
 
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Bubble Boy said:
Here is what would be weird to me about Cam Smith going to LIV. He lives a mile or so from the Tour HQs, and I'm pretty sure he does most of his practicing at the back range of TPC, which is probably one of the top practice facilities in the country. And there are a ton of Tour/Champions/Korn Ferry guys that practice and hang around together there. I don't know that he is going to dinner every night with the commissioner, but I would be shocked if he doesn't have a good relationship with a fair amount of area Tour and TPC staff plus a lot of current/future/former Tour players. If he bolts for LIV I'd imagine he becomes persona non grata around TPC Sawgrass. Maybe he moves cities or maybe he finds a new place to practice that isn't as nice as TPC, but I don't think he'd be able to continue the same routine that has put his game in the place it is today. Maybe $100M or whatever he could get is worth more than that, but I really think it could have an impact on his ability to stay at his current level or go to a higher level.
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Cam is fishing more than he’s practicing. Regardless, it’s not hard to find a nice club with elite practice facilities in Florida. He can just head down 95 to South Florida and have his pick of about 20 to choose from.

I agree Cam “doesn’t move the needle.” Almost no one does in golf. However, he is one of the best players in the world and I think this would change the perception of LIV. Additionally, it would make any decision of not awarding OWGR points to their events look like complete sour grapes by the golf power structure and only hurt the game’s perception, in my opinion. They shouldn’t be worth as much as a PGA tour event, but LIV would have some serious talent on the tour, and doing well in one of their events would not be meaningless in terms of assessing who the best players in the world are.
 
PhDeac said:
If losing the 28 year old most recent major champ and undisputed a top 3 player doesn’t move the needle, that seems like a problem for golf in general. It should matter where the top players play.
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Golf has so many good players in the fields and on the fringes. And even the best go through spells of bad play. It's not like only a few guys dominate. The product still continues on if you lose a top guy. Sure. There is a critical mass where it changes the product. But a few washed up guys and one superstar isn't really that. Number three becomes number 2. Four becomes three And on down the line the beat goes on. Hell my daughter and I watched cam Young a year ago in the local Korn Ferry event. There are a ton of good golfers out there. If you enjoy high level golf and a decent number of the top guys remain - it's still a good product
 
PhDeac said:
LOL. $100M is more than enough to buy new friends and plenty of tee times wherever he wants.

Charles Barkley is presumably still weighing an offer from LIV and will play in the upcoming pro-am at Bedminster.

He probably had the best answers to the criticism I’ve seen but not many people have the rep to get away with it like Chuck.
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It's not about having "tee times". He can probably already go and play just about any course he wants - more money has no impact on that. But I'd bet he spends about 80-90% of his non-tourney playing time at the professional part of the practice facility at TPC Sawgrass, which could be the best practice facility for pros in the entire country, and just so happens to be part of the headquarters for the PGA Tour. And there is a culture of Tour players that do their practicing and hanging out there. Pretty much on their own without interference from the average Joe Hacker like at most other clubs. But yeah, maybe for $100M he just moves to where some other LIV guys are and does whatever they are doing. But if he does blow off the PGA Tour, his current routine is pretty much over. And that routine just won him a Players and Open championship in the same year.
 
All of those practice facilities and golf courses are available 45 minutes north in Sea Island and arguably a better place to live. I think you’re over estimating buddies becoming former buddies and being shunned because he chooses something different for his life
 
guitardeac said:
Here's how much it matters if Cam Smith is not playing the PGA Tour: Tiger barely plays the Tour anymore and the place is still functioning it appears. I think the PGA Tour might be able to survive that giant vacuum created by Cam Smith's exit. I mean come on.
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Have you seen the fields in Minneapolis and at the Quad City. No one is saying Cam Smith singlehandedly craters ratings. Those fields do crater them. It's the totality of all that has happened.

Minneapolis could have used some real stars this week. Of course all wouldn't come, but some would on a week to week basis. By not have access to the LIV pool of players on one of their off weeks, Minneapolis and Greensboro really become victims. Why? Only because of the PGA Tour's irrational and illegal decision to ban them. The damage is self-inflicted.
 
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