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Specific problems with specific welfare programs and how to fix them

WakeandBake said:
To be fair, jhmd works hard and I believe owns a businesses and busts his ass. So did his parents, IIRC.

I think I know how he feels: I have busted my ass my whole life working long hours and weekends making chicken salad out of chicken shit. I get it. I get hard work and I own a small biz now and I work 12 and 14 hour days 7 days a week.

My issue with his position on this is that he has let his resentment of the poor go to his head wrt to the allocation of tax dollars to fund entitlements. It has clouded his judgment and he is buying into snake oil schemes to make the problem go away.
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While I appreciate the olive branch and the unmerited praise (in my case, not that of my parents, who did put their shoulder to the wheel), the foundation of anything we do has to be based in a fundamental assumption that people are good and capable. I genuinely believe that a system that numbs the pain of self-destructive decisions is neglect benign in intent and malicious in impact. If we continue to treat people as worthy only of pity and the bare minimum needed to stave off death, then I believe we will reap what we sew: and that ain't good enough, is it?

What's the point of meeting someone's needs but not helping them reach their potential? We don't have to reinvent the wheel: the building blocks of personal success are well known and have an established track record (if you don't believe me, I ask you to return to the lessons and expectations you have for your own children, and compare them to those our policies ask---genuinely and with consequence---of people currently in need). We're not talking about cold fusion in a jar; we're talking about basic, controllable steps individuals can take to not disqualify themselves from a better life. You don't need "privilege" to not get pregnant, or finish high school (people who aren't white graduate from high school every day). You need someone in your life who cares about you enough to stay on you so you choose to stay on the right path. The minute we drop the expectation that people not quit on themselves (by quitting on them first), we're not treating them as equals. The fixation with privilege (a fact no one has disputed in the abstract, only in its utility towards solutions for other people's challenges) is a step away from answers (the subject of this thread).

I don't get how not quitting on people's ability to keep themselves in the game amounts to resentment. I also don't understand how some people can be absolutely sure that their point of view has a monopoly on compassion and genuine concern. This problem is big enough for more than one solution.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I agree with this and I agree that it's natural to ignore benefits you've received when evaluating your own situation where you worked hard. If you work hard and make it you are more likely to say those who aren't making it aren't working hard I.e. They're lazy. That's certainly true for a portion of the issue but society also is structured in a way that makes it harder for certain segments of society to turn hard work into substantial gain.
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Great post. The biggest problem I have with so many people is that they're born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple instead of realizing they merely haven't gotten picked off. Then they look at poor people stuck in the batters box and think the poors believe they hit a home run.
 
Everybody. Here. Thinks. That. We. Need. Programs. To. Help. People. Reach. Their. Potential.

You are fucking killing this strawman though.

To say people who aren't white graduate high school every day does a grave disservice to the actual issue. Even if the issue is minorities are more likely to have single parent households, why is this? Do you think there's something biological about it? Do you think that minorities decided as a group to pop kids out early on in their life? Do you think minorities decided together to not place an emphasis on education? What is your answer, JHMD, for why minorities graduate high school at lower rates, graduate college at lower rates, and then even if they do all of this, then do not get jobs at an equal rate as white people even when everything else is controlled?

You're yet to answer the question I asked about why black people have twice the unemployment rate as white people when every thing is controlled.
 
jhmd2000 said:
While I appreciate the olive branch and the unmerited praise (in my case, not that of my parents, who did put their shoulder to the wheel), the foundation of anything we do has to be based in a fundamental assumption that people are good and capable. I genuinely believe that a system that numbs the pain of self-destructive decisions is neglect benign in intent and malicious in impact. If we continue to treat people as worthy only of pity and the bare minimum needed to stave off death, then I believe we will reap what we sew: and that ain't good enough, is it?

What's the point of meeting someone's needs but not helping them reach their potential? We don't have to reinvent the wheel: the building blocks of personal success are well known and have an established track record (if you don't believe me, I ask you to return to the lessons and expectations you have for your own children, and compare them to those our policies ask---genuinely and with consequence---of people currently in need). We're not talking about cold fusion in a jar; we're talking about basic, controllable steps individuals can take to not disqualify themselves from a better life. You don't need "privilege" to not get pregnant, or finish high school (people who aren't white graduate from high school every day). You need someone in your life who cares about you enough to stay on you so you choose to stay on the right path. The minute we drop the expectation that people not quit on themselves (by quitting on them first), we're not treating them as equals. The fixation with privilege (a fact no one has disputed in the abstract, only in its utility towards solutions for other people's challenges) is a step away from answers (the subject of this thread).

I don't get how not quitting on people's ability to keep themselves in the game amounts to resentment. I also don't understand how some people can be absolutely sure that their point of view has a monopoly on compassion and genuine concern. This problem is big enough for more than one solution.
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so what kind of pain should people who make self-destructive decisions feel?

Be specific
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Make policies that aren't solely determined upon outcome to level the playing field to a point where outcomes actually reflect appropriately what the issue is.

Black people are hired at a lower rate than white people across the board when everything is controlled. Why is this?
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Not sure what "everything" means, but we have stipulated several hundred years ago that black people have a tougher climb than white people based upon prejudices. That inarguable fact isn't a solution. Fixating on it (at the expense of solving it) is a distraction. How does three more laps on that issue solve anything?
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Everybody. Here. Thinks. That. We. Need. Programs. To. Help. People. Reach. Their. Potential.

You are fucking killing this strawman though.

To say people who aren't white graduate high school every day does a grave disservice to the actual issue. Even if the issue is minorities are more likely to have single parent households, why is this? Do you think there's something biological about it? Do you think that minorities decided as a group to pop kids out early on in their life? Do you think minorities decided together to not place an emphasis on education? What is your answer, JHMD, for why minorities graduate high school at lower rates, graduate college at lower rates, and then even if they do all of this, then do not get jobs at an equal rate as white people even when everything else is controlled?

You're yet to answer the question I asked about why black people have twice the unemployment rate as white people when every thing is controlled.
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What solution have I proposed that you disagree with, then? Why NOT condition benefits on volunteering in public service projects and completing one's education? BBD thinks that some mothers aren't up for caring for children. So do you agree with him that we should give up on them?
 
jhmd2000 said:
Not sure what "everything" means, but we have stipulated several hundred years ago that black people have a tougher climb than white people based upon prejudices. That inarguable fact isn't a solution. Fixating on it (at the expense of solving it) is a distraction. How does three more laps on that issue solve anything?
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You're a smart person. Think. Put aside your biases.

It doesn't SOLVE anything, and I never said it did. In fact I said the opposite. I told you that you're trying to answer a long essay question with a multiple choice answer. You're ignoring 95% of the question and then tasking us to provide an answer to the 5% you think is the real question.

Obviously there is something about our society that is failing large segments of said society if you can do everything possible: graduate high school and college, work hard in the summers, and then still fail to land a job at twice the rate as the typical white guy. This is a major problem to address with welfare and unemployment don't you think? Working hard doesn't lead to a job and you need government assistance - assistance, which you think just reinforces bad behavior. Bad behavior is not the sole, or even the major, reason for needing government assistance. You just assume it is and you completely ignore any other possibility.
 
jhmd2000 said:
While I appreciate the olive branch and the unmerited praise (in my case, not that of my parents, who did put their shoulder to the wheel), the foundation of anything we do has to be based in a fundamental assumption that people are good and capable. I genuinely believe that a system that numbs the pain of self-destructive decisions is neglect benign in intent and malicious in impact. If we continue to treat people as worthy only of pity and the bare minimum needed to stave off death, then I believe we will reap what we sew: and that ain't good enough, is it?

What's the point of meeting someone's needs but not helping them reach their potential? We don't have to reinvent the wheel: the building blocks of personal success are well known and have an established track record (if you don't believe me, I ask you to return to the lessons and expectations you have for your own children, and compare them to those our policies ask---genuinely and with consequence---of people currently in need). We're not talking about cold fusion in a jar; we're talking about basic, controllable steps individuals can take to not disqualify themselves from a better life. You don't need "privilege" to not get pregnant, or finish high school (people who aren't white graduate from high school every day). You need someone in your life who cares about you enough to stay on you so you choose to stay on the right path. The minute we drop the expectation that people not quit on themselves (by quitting on them first), we're not treating them as equals. The fixation with privilege (a fact no one has disputed in the abstract, only in its utility towards solutions for other people's challenges) is a step away from answers (the subject of this thread).

I don't get how not quitting on people's ability to keep themselves in the game amounts to resentment. I also don't understand how some people can be absolutely sure that their point of view has a monopoly on compassion and genuine concern. This problem is big enough for more than one solution.
Click to expand...

dude, I know, but where we disagree is on opportunity. When the private sector is hell-bent on maximizing profits no-matter-the-consequences (and globalization of labor), there is much less opportunity and certainly not the same opportunity our parents' generation enjoyed. Hence the cycle of poverty. Like I said, people haven't changed - their economic surroundings have.
 
There's plenty of research on hiring discrimination out there that shows everything from checking black as race on application, from having an ethnic sounding name, to having an ethnic hairstyle hurts makes it less likely for black people to get hired.
 
PhDeac said:
There's plenty of research on hiring discrimination out there that shows everything from checking black as race on application, from having an ethnic sounding name, to having an ethnic hairstyle hurts makes it less likely for black people to get hired.
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sounds like excuses, not solutions
 
WakeandBake said:
dude, I know, but where we disagree is on opportunity. When the private sector is hell-bent on maximizing profits no-matter-the-consequences (and globalization of labor), there is much less opportunity and certainly not the same opportunity our parents' generation enjoyed. Hence the cycle of poverty. Like I said, people haven't changed - their economic surroundings have.
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So do we react and adapt to stay competitive, or bury our heads in the sand and wish the problem away?
 
PPV Hunger Games to supplement welfare expenses? If you're lazy and living high on the hog through government programs, you're in the lottery for your district.
 
jhmd2000 said:
So do we react and adapt to stay competitive, or bury our heads in the sand and wish the problem away?
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.... I think he's saying exactly what he's said all along, which is try to change the economic surroundings. Has anyone buried their head in the sand and wanted to keep the status quo regarding the economic condition in our country?
 
If you don't pay income taxes, you are eligible to be drafted to replace a service member in Afghanistan?
 
You can only have one child, but birth control is illegal?
 
PhDeac said:
There's plenty of research on hiring discrimination out there that shows everything from checking black as race on application, from having an ethnic sounding name, to having an ethnic hairstyle hurts makes it less likely for black people to get hired.
Click to expand...

Is your proposal that we tell America not to be so racist? I think that's a fine idea. Let's do it.

Just in case that doesn't work, let's contrast the employment rates, all other things being equal, of teenage high school dropout mothers versus the exact same person, but this time with a college degree. As much as I'd like to for Jeanie to fold her arms, bob her head thrice, and blink racism away, it seems like putting yourself in the best position to succeed is the single best plan for any given individual. We need to quit selling young people short by telling them that the deck is stacked against them, they've got no chance, and if it turns out that despite that pep talk they can't pay their bills, we can probably give them enough not to starve. We can, but that plan sucks, and we should stop settling for it.

Why not ask people on public assistance to volunteer in their community? If everyone in your community has to work, why wouldn't you start emulating the people who get paid more for what they do? Role models are important, and I don't know that our biggest problem is a surplus of positive male role models. There are plenty of people drawing long term unemployment who could be difference makers in after school programs and community groups. Are we leveraging that resource, or have we written them off as victims of globalization? Are there no more spaces for community gardens to feed the hungry? Does the internet reach every school and community library?
 
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jhmd2000 said:
Is your proposal that we tell America not to be so racist? I think that's a fine idea. Let's do it.

Just in case that doesn't work, let's contrast the employment rates, all other things being equal, of teenage high school dropout mothers or the same person versus persons with a college degree. As much as I'd like to for Jeanie to fold her arms, bob her head thrice, and blink racism away, it seems like putting yourself in the best position to succeed is the single best plan for any given individual. We need to quit selling young people short by telling them that the deck is stacked against them, they've got no chance, and if it turns out that despite that pep talk they can't pay their bills, we can probably give them enough not to starve. We can, but that plan sucks, and we should stop settling for it.

Why not ask people on public assistance to volunteer in their community? If everyone in your community has to work, why wouldn't you start emulating the people who get paid more for what they do? Role models are important, and I don't know that our biggest problem is a surplus of positive male role models. There are plenty of people drawing long term unemployment who could be difference makers in after school programs and community groups. Are we leveraging that resource, or have we written them off?
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Totally agree
 
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