Specific problems with specific welfare programs and how to fix them

[Wakeforest22890]

Lol the private sector has to hire those people JHMD and it's easier...as you said on the minimum wage thread (I believe it was you) for companies to just cut jobs to maximize profits!

 

[jhmd2000]

so what kind of pain should people who make self-destructive decisions feel?

Be specific

Specifically? I think that they should have to meet with you face to face, and you can explain how you knew they'd never make it, because they're not as good as you, and they need your help not to starve. I believe they deserve to hear how little you think of them and that they met the low expectations you set for them, because they're not good enough for the expectations you have for your own children. I'd hate for them to not know how you really feel. That would be good for both of you.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Specifically? I think that they should have to meet with you face to face, and you can explain how you knew they'd never make it, because they're not as good as you, and they need your help not to starve. I believe they deserve to hear how little you think of them and that they met the low expectations you set for them, because they're not good enough for the expectations you have for your own children. I'd hate for them to not know how you really feel. That would be good for both of you.

So basically, you don't want to think about the negative consequences of your plan, only the job creating, opportunity cashing positives.

Got it.

 

[jhmd2000]

So basically, you don't want to think about the negative consequences of your plan, only the job creating, opportunity cashing positives.

Got it.

To answer your question left in rep, I never proposed cutting off aid (and no amount of manufacturing that accusation is going to change that, despite considerable effort in this and other threads), I proposed conditioning aid on achievable goals that would help them and their community. The outgoing money is the same either way, but the impact (on them and the manifest needs of their broken community) is turning wasted potential into meaningful change. I don't seen the "negative consequences" to my proposal, since the money to them is the same (and believe it or not, my taxes will still stay high).

But you're right, that was probably out of line. My apologies.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

To answer your question left in rep, I never proposed cutting off aid (and no amount of manufacturing that accusation is going to change that, despite considerable effort in this and other threads), I proposed conditioning aid on achievable goals that would help them and their community. The outgoing money is the same either way, but the impact (on them and the manifest needs of their broken community) is turning wasted potential into meaningful change. I don't seen the "negative consequences" to my proposal, since the money to them is the same (and believe it or not, my taxes will still stay high).

But you're right, that was probably out of line. My apologies.

When you say "conditioning aid on goals," that implies that those who don't achieve those goals do not get the aid. Is that true?

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Again I'm for private companies making money but doing so with a social conscience. This is where Rand-ism fails.

 

[jhmd2000]

When you say "conditioning aid on goals," that implies that those who don't achieve those goals do not get the aid. Is that true?

In the case of deliberate and willful noncompliance, yes. That's life, though, isn't it? You tell your boss (probably a Carolina grad) to GTH and what happens? The better approach is to give the people a chance to earn promotions to better positions. I'm an ice cream-steak-salmon-chicken-roasted vegetable-carrot-carrot-carrot-carrot-second-chance-third-chance-and-then-the-stick type of guy.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

If we had infinite money to pay infinite social workers to oversee and check up on all the people who receive aid, then I wouldn't have much problem with that plan. But it's just not realistic given our current infrastructure.

 

[jhmd2000]

Again I'm for private companies making money but doing so with a social conscience. This is where Rand-ism fails.

Need a hand out there on that limb, or have you got this?

IMO, you have to know your audience. Do you think your hotel cares about the environment, or are they just trying to save coin on laundry, power, water and soap?

American energy companies were fine importing oil until pirates started seizing tankers and crazy people kept taking control of countries in the sandbox. Domestic oil production (ostensibly great for our economy) got a lot more attractive when the market said so, not because XOM sprouted a patriotic bone.

If you really want to motivate any company to do the right thing, be a conscientious consumer and encourage others to do the same. That's never been easier, by the way.

 

[jhmd2000]

If we had infinite money to pay infinite social workers to oversee and check up on all the people who receive aid, then I wouldn't have much problem with that plan. But it's just not realistic given our current infrastructure.

I was waiting for this one. How can we be so quick to be sure what they can't do, but slow to believe in what they can? If a case worker is sure they can't find a job and therefore need more unemployment, why can't they assess what they can do? We can't afford volunteer work? Not buying it.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

I mean, I don't really see how you could look at your plan and say that it doesn't add a ton of time to each case that a social worker has to take care of. They are already paid like shit and don't have enough hours in the week to see all of their clients and document everything. Dumping more on them isn't really realistic.

 

[jhmd2000]

I mean, I don't really see how you could look at your plan and say that it doesn't add a ton of time to each case that a social worker has to take care of. They are already paid like shit and don't have enough hours in the week to see all of their clients and document everything. Dumping more on them isn't really realistic.

Agree to disagree. I think the difference in these people's lives is worth the added expense, even if I have to pay more in taxes. I hear the labor market is for buyer's right now.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Need a hand out there on that limb, or have you got this?

IMO, you have to know your audience. Do you think your hotel cares about the environment, or are they just trying to save coin on laundry, power, water and soap?

American energy companies were fine importing oil until pirates started seizing tankers and crazy people kept taking control of countries in the sandbox. Domestic oil production (ostensibly great for our economy) got a lot more attractive when the market said so, not because XOM sprouted a patriotic bone.

If you really want to motivate any company to do the right thing, be a conscientious consumer and encourage others to do the same. That's never been easier, by the way.

Well I'm not really a fan of capitalism so that's probably why I don't really care about the rest of your post

 

[DeacMan]

Again I'm for private companies making money but doing so with a social conscience. This is where Rand-ism fails.

Who determines when a company has a proper social conscience?

 

[DeacMan]

Weird response to a yes/no question.

Do you agree with pourman's definition of poor and middle class?

I'm not going to go back and dig up definitions of poor and middle class. Repost what he said and I'll try to answer.

As for your "yes" or "no" question, it's a dumb question. Cash flow does not necessarily equal wealth. So don't confuse the two things.

 

[WFFaithful]

They are in the Top 5% of all earners.

But rich is situational. I think of the rich as people who can choose not to work because they are set financially. Could they be rich? Absolutely. But if you are pulling in 250K, sitting on tons of student loans, trying to care for a family of five, etc. you aren't feeling "rich". You are, however, in an awesome position to get there.

You should tell pourman that wealth is situational. He thinks all our poor need to survive is $1.25 a day.

 

[DreamOnDemOn]

I think I know how he feels: I have busted my ass my whole life working long hours and weekends making chicken salad out of chicken shit. I get it. I get hard work and I own a small biz now and I work 12 and 14 hour days 7 days a week.

Instead of thinking only of your own profit 12 to 14 hours a day 7 days a week perhaps you should agitate .govs for higher taxes on small biz to help retarded sluts pop out gangbangers' crack babies.

 

[Deacfreak07]

Instead of thinking only of your own profit 12 to 14 hours a day 7 days a week perhaps you should agitate .govs for higher taxes on small biz to help retarded sluts pop out gangbangers' crack babies.

opcorn:

 

[Wrangor]

I mean, I don't really see how you could look at your plan and say that it doesn't add a ton of time to each case that a social worker has to take care of. They are already paid like shit and don't have enough hours in the week to see all of their clients and document everything. Dumping more on them isn't really realistic.

Technically you could hire someone that was already being paid something for not working and pay them to work as a case worker and the financial impact would be much less.

Plus they would be paying taxes on that income (at least some) which would additionally lower the impact. The volunteer work force has some merit. People would also have opportunities to network, gain skills, and hopefully increase their chances of finding a job post government aid.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Technically you could hire someone that was already being paid something for not working and pay them to work as a case worker and the financial impact would be much less.

Plus they would be paying taxes on that income (at least some) which would additionally lower the impact. The volunteer work force has some merit. People would also have opportunities to network, gain skills, and hopefully increase their chances of finding a job post government aid.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

If you want to pay for that person to go to school for social work so that they are qualified to work as a case worker, then sure