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The Argument for Guns

Kent said:
(I'm sure I've lost you to a blind rage, and you're hammering out some extreme reply about how I- a social liberal and political moderate- am some Ted Nugent wannabe, but for the rest of the crew...) I think some of this comes down to comfort level. I have two friends who have small planes. Every time I fly with them, I am scared shitless. I try to hide it, but they can tell. To them, flying those planes is like driving a car, because they know how to do it and they are careful. Similarly, some people are very comfortable around guns. I am certain that my guns are not going to inadvertently harm someone, because I know how to handle them, and I am careful with them. I think some people who haven't handled guns a lot feel about guns the way I feel about small planes.
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I understand, but it should be pretty clear by now that there are plenty of people that are comfortable with guns that still end up having accidents, or leaving their guns around children, or going off the deep end, or feeling a moment of depression when they want to take their own life. And for the rest of us, there is no way to distinguish those people from the ones that are careful, responsible, and know full well what they are doing.

Would you get in a small plane with a stranger with no license?
 
PhDeac said:
Weird. I thought people bought guns because they weren't comfortable with guns held by other people.

I also like how small towns are simultaneously places where people leave their doors unlocked yet live in fear of intruders.
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And cities are safe because the police will be at your doorstep in minutes. (Not directed at Junebug, obviously.)
 
bobknightfan said:
It's really fairly simple. Any organization & its followers who truly believe that if more people had guns fewer people would be shot is nuts.

And the more easily that you make these guns accessible, the more people are going to have them who will not use them responsibly. Every time I hear an argument from someone like Kent, he always prefaces it with the comment that he knows how to use his guns safely & responsibly....and that's great. The problem is that with, what, 200 to 300 million guns in this country now?, most people do not know how to use their guns safely & responsibly. And the paranoid NRA & its supporters have been consistent in opposing all measures...such as waiting periods, background checks, etc...to prevent guns getting into the hands of people who will not use them safely & responsibly.

And why does a person need an automatic weapon to defend his home? Are they expecting to be invaded by an army of thieves?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of anyone on this board who is arguing that automatic weapons must or should be permitted.
 
avalon said:
Would you get in a small plane with a stranger with no license?
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No, I wouldn't. And I would be fine with requiring people who want to own guns to be required to take mandatory training. I'm generally fine with gun regulation, as I noted earlier. I also don't have a problem with banning machine guns, etc.

It's a hard problem, because you have to enact rules that are balanced and then you have to worry about who and what can slip through those rules. I completely support the proposition that "crazy people should not have guns." It's very hard though to regulate to that standard (what is considered crazy; who is crazy; what happens if their mental state changes after they have a gun, etc., etc.).

There's no perfect solution, which is not to say we shouldn't do something. But that something needs to come from a collaboration between rational people on both sides.
 
Junebug said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of anyone on this board who is arguing that automatic weapons must or should be permitted.
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Is this the first time you've stated that you are against them?
 
bobknightfan said:
The problem is that with, what, 200 to 300 million guns in this country now?, most people do not know how to use their guns safely & responsibly.
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On this, we agree. That is a huge problem. There's no good way to post-regulate that many guns. There are things we can do, but it would be a long, expensive and inefficient process.
 
Kent said:
On this, we agree. That is a huge problem. There's no good way to post-regulate that many guns. There are things we can do, but it would be a long, expensive and inefficient process.
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So we should leave the problem unsolved?
 
bobknightfan said:
Question: Do you consider the NRA to be a "rational" organization?

If your answer is "yes", go to question #2.

Question #2: Do you agree with the NRA's position that the way to avoid massacres like the one that killed 20 six-year old children at Sandy Hook is to post armed guards in all the schools and have teachers carry guns in the classroom?
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No. As I noted above I dislike the NRA. But if my only two choices were NRA or lose all my guns, the NRA would be the lesser of two disliked things. The point I keep trying to make is that there is a middle ground.

I'll go to #2 anyway. No, I don't think that's a good solution. But if some security guard had shot that stupid kid at Sandy Hook the second he pulled out a gun, that security guard would be a hero. I obviously don't know all the facts about Sandy Hook, but my personal, perhaps uninformed, opinion is that that kid's mother should never have let him around guns, much less taken him to shooting ranges and whatnot.
 
Kent said:
No. As I noted above I dislike the NRA. But if my only two choices were NRA or lose all my guns, the NRA would be the lesser of two disliked things. The point I keep trying to make is that there is a middle ground.

I'll go to #2 anyway. No, I don't think that's a good solution. But if some security guard had shot that stupid kid at Sandy Hook the second he pulled out a gun, that security guard would be a hero. I obviously don't know all the facts about Sandy Hook, but my personal, perhaps uninformed, opinion is that that kid's mother should never have let him around guns, much less taken him to shooting ranges and whatnot.
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Why not?
 
bobknightfan said:
It's ironic that we have a gun advocate on this thread who goes by the name of "Junebug". Back in 1976, I had a barber who went by the name of "June Bug" who committed suicide with a hunting rifle.

From my diary:

JUN 01 - 1976 My barber, "June Bug" Swaim, committed suicide at age 42 in his house on main street next to his barber shop

(And he was a big hunter. I'm sure that he knew how to use his guns safely & responsibly.)
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If guns had never been invented, your diary entry would likely read the exact same.
 
Kent said:
A few things. But first a question, seriously. Do you ever even try to see the other side of an issue? I really want to know.

Everyone who owns and wants to keep a gun is not a "fanatic." I dislike the NRA, but when I read posts like this it makes me want to sign up. Seriously, statements like yours are worth more than gold to the NRA.

More importantly, a town of 5,000 (I know; I grew up in one) will almost certainly have a police department. And people in such towns often live in neighborhoods where people watch out for each other. Even if you live outside of town, you're 5-10 minutes away from a law enforcement officer at your door.

People who live in the remote parts of rural counties (for example, my farm is 6 or so miles outside of a town of 300) are 30-45 minutes away from law enforcement. I am very (very) comforted by the fact that I have rifles and shotguns in my house, even though I will hopefully never need them for self-protection.

(I'm sure I've lost you to a blind rage, and you're hammering out some extreme reply about how I- a social liberal and political moderate- am some Ted Nugent wannabe, but for the rest of the crew...) I think some of this comes down to comfort level. I have two friends who have small planes. Every time I fly with them, I am scared shitless. I try to hide it, but they can tell. To them, flying those planes is like driving a car, because they know how to do it and they are careful. Similarly, some people are very comfortable around guns. I am certain that my guns are not going to inadvertently harm someone, because I know how to handle them, and I am careful with them. I think some people who haven't handled guns a lot feel about guns the way I feel about small planes.
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Well we don't let people fly planes who haven't passed hundreds if not thousands of hours in the sky with training as far as I know.
 
Kent said:
True, but a lot of irresponsible people just leave their planes lying around.
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When is the last time a child killed another child with a plane?
 
There is a pretty easy solution to accidental gun crime. Tie the action to the gun owner. If a kid shoots himself with your gun then the gun owner goes to jail. If someone steals your gun and you don't report it (obviously if your gun is stolen and you report the action then you are no longer culpable) then when they kill someone you pay the same penalty. This one action would cause everyone to rethink their gun ownership. I will probably own a gun at some point over the next decade for hunting, and possibly for personal protection. When I do, I will be absolutely certain to protect my kids from accidental use by having a gun safe and separating the ammo from the gun.

It would only take a few cases of sloppy gun owners going to jail to waken everyone else up. If you own the gun, you are responsible for it. If you can't be responsible for it, then don't own it.
 
For accidents, I'm not sure it's that simple. Why would jail time be more of a deterrent than the risk of accidental gun death in your home? There are plenty of incidents of accidental gun injuries and deaths by children in the gun violence thread, and that doesn't seem to have woken everyone else up.
 
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