This thread is about context

[slothrop]

Groce has done something [Redacted] has never done: won an NCAA Tournament game.

He's proven infinitely more to me than [Redacted] ever has. All [Redacted] has ever proven to me is that there is no excuse too far-fetched to be rationalized.

 

[stonz]

As to Groce in his first three years coaching in a mediocre conference, he was under
.500 in conference games. He has to prove more.

That's pretty misleading.

Year 1: 7-9 (1-1 in conference tournament)
Year 2: 7-9 (4-0)
Year 3: 9-7 (1-1)

So entering this year, he was actually 29-27 in conference games. Then factor in his 8-4 record this year, and he's at 37-31. Then factor in that he will return his entire rotation from this year's well-above .500 team...

I would also quibble with the "mediocre conference" part, as the MAC's East division is very very strong for the mid major level.

 

[IrishSlim]

This thread is about (selective) context.

 

[slothrop]

Stonz, we've already established that RJ doesn't watch MAC basketball because he continually refers to it as "terrible." I'd be hard-pressed to believe he's ever seen the Bobcats play more than 1-2 games under Groce.

 

[RJKarl]

Getting lucky once does equal being good enough to coach Wake. At that point he was 14-18 in his mid-major cofnerence. Sorry, that doesn't qualify him to be at Wake.

He may turn out to be good, but at that point he wasn't ready.

GT's recruiting rating is about one guy.

[Redacted] was no one's first, second or third choice.

 

[deacz]

My hope when we hired [Redacted] was that his awful record had resulted from the lack of basketball history/prowress at his prior programs. Although that may hold true to an extent, from our performance I now know he had plenty to do with it as well.

Context.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

Getting lucky once does equal being good enough to coach Wake. At that point he was 14-18 in his mid-major cofnerence. Sorry, that doesn't qualify him to be at Wake.

He may turn out to be good, but at that point he wasn't ready.

GT's recruiting rating is about one guy.

[Redacted] was no one's first, second or third choice.

No, apparently you must have a much, much worse record to be qualified to coach at Wake.

 

[jaybone]

Wasn't Gottfried the first coach to try to poach ATT after Skip died? Fuck him.

I believe that is true, so he could get tripped up by morals, but that seems to be the only thing between him and some Sweet 16s

 

[RJKarl]

That's pretty misleading.

Year 1: 7-9 (1-1 in conference tournament)
Year 2: 7-9 (4-0)
Year 3: 9-7 (1-1)

So entering this year, he was actually 29-27 in conference games. Then factor in his 8-4 record this year, and he's at 37-31. Then factor in that he will return his entire rotation from this year's well-above .500 team...

I would also quibble with the "mediocre conference" part, as the MAC's East division is very very strong for the mid major level.

He was 23-25 in conference games coming into this season not 29-27.

Plus he was 14-18, when wee hired [Redacted].

 

[slothrop]

If [Redacted] was no one (except for Wellman's, obviously) first, second or third choice, and he is also failing at his job considerably, what is the real reason to keep him around?

Is there one, aside from the "let him get his guys (the good ones, not the first year that he completely ignored) in there so he can possibly maybe someday get Wake to a 6th-place finish in conference two or three years from now and then leave for another job or retire?"

 

[DiegoTiger]

Brownell is a better hire than [Redacted]. I fail to see why you continue to hate on him, RJ. He is local, knows the high schools, gets the most out of his players and is young. He is exactly what [Redacted] has tried (and failed) to be, but is younger -- and better at it.

The propensity with which you fail to recognize good mid major coaches (namely Brownell & Groce in particular) is perplexing to me.

It's interesting to see the multiple posters thinking Brownell was a bad hire. He made the tourney his first season, and did what Purnell couldn't, won a game. He lost a lot of talent off of last years team, and half if this years team is freshman, but they always put in a ton of effort and usually play great defense. We don't recruit like most of the ACC, but Brownell had a pretty good 2011 class, and I like the way the 2012 class looks. I Brownell will really start to succeed after he cycles out Purnell's recruits.....I like the hire.

 

[DCDeac]

The NCState meltdown at Duke didn't speak much to Gottfried's in-game coaching ability. He just froze. Even with the foul trouble he just watched as his team held the ball over and over again too deep into the shot clock, settling for one-on-one moves against double-teams and giving up 3's by refusing to switch on picks. That's an extremely talented and athletic team to have zero ranked wins on the year. Only ACC team of any quality they've beaten is Miami. Inflated conference record from playing GA Tech, Wake, and BC all twice - and they managed to lose to GA Tech.

GA Tech is terrible. Clemson underachieving. BC is terrible. Maryland has Stoglin and looks horrid when he's off. We don't excuse our program for youth or depth or whatever so don't excuse others.

Coaching is putting together a system and finding players for it. None of these guys, so far, have done both well. [Redacted] hasn't done either well. Next year it's safe to say is probably about as good as a [Redacted] recruiting class gets, so we'll see what happens. I think the best thing about next year is that it should be 100% crystal clear whether it's even possible to be successful under Bzzz, so we can fire him if we suck again.

 

[jaybone]

This thread is about (selective) context.

Then stop being such a pussy and jump in and add context.

This is about program building/destroying, not comparing numbers.

There are coaches who have a track record of building, some that have a track record of tearing down, and some that slide along sideways.

The real catch-22 is that Bzd has a history of building programs, but not to any place you'd say, oy, success. But the only program he arguably left worse than when he started was Air Force. Every other stop, including the Nuggets, and his other NBA franchise jobs, those schools/teams were better off when he left than when he arrived. The trouble becomes exactly where they were when he left is no great shakes.

You could argue he left or was canned (Denver) before his efforts were bore fruit, but it is frankly, not that compelling of an argument. This is where hope and prayer come in. The hope being Wake is some kind of jewel that due to being in the ACC and on tobacco road yada yada can bring out the Coach K or at least the best of Bzd. That's where the debate should be, IMO.

But mostly you've seemed to big a pussy to try that debate. It is easier to whine ad nauseum

 

[slothrop]

People who think Brownell is a bad coach have not paid attention to Brownell. He has won everywhere he's been and has always exceeded expectations. UNCW fans love him. Wright State fans love him. Clemson fans love him.

 

[RJKarl]

There are two reasons:

1. he hasn't gotten to coach reasonable talent and has it coming in next year. If doesn't succeed next year ,then fire him.

2. (more importantly)- We won't get to choose the guy we want if we have fired two coaches in three years. We will have done so after each brought in a very highly regarded recruiting class which we didn't allow them to coach.

Why would a top hire take the chance that he will get fired as quickly? Whether it's Shaka, Groce or others, they will get plenty of opportunities.

Why put yourself in a postion where you know the AD has a hair trigger and you have less than no job security?"

If [Redacted] doesn't do well next year, we will have a much better position from which to hire.

 

[IrishSlim]

Then stop being such a pussy and jump in and add context.

This is about program building/destroying, not comparing numbers.

There are coaches who have a track record of building, some that have a track record of tearing down, and some that slide along sideways.

The real catch-22 is that Bzd has a history of building programs, but not to any place you'd say, oy, success. But the only program he arguably left worse than when he started was Air Force. Every other stop, including the Nuggets, and his other NBA franchise jobs, those schools/teams were better off when he left than when he arrived. The trouble becomes exactly where they were when he left is no great shakes.

You could argue he left or was canned (Denver) before his efforts were bore fruit, but it is frankly, not that compelling of an argument. This is where hope and prayer come in. The hope being Wake is some kind of jewel that due to being in the ACC and on tobacco road yada yada can bring out the Coach K or at least the best of Bzd. That's where the debate should be, IMO.

But mostly you've seemed to big a pussy to try that debate. It is easier to whine ad nauseum

At least you aren't making any more gay jokes, asshat.

Sloth and OGB are smacking you around like a pinata. I'll just watch and laugh at your ineptitude. If that makes me a (insert derogatory slur here) in your eyes, all the better. Because like 99% of posters here, I think your take on [Redacted] is always wrong.

 

[ChrisL68]

NBA is irrelevant. The nuggets got Carmelo Anthony.

The only success Bz has in college is at a program where he had an experienced team that basically ran his offense and that was 0-14 in league play two years after he left.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

There are two reasons:

1. he hasn't gotten to coach reasonable talent and has ity coming in next year. If doesn't succeed nexct year ,then fire him.

He had two NBA players on his last team at Colorado (and kudos to him for recruiting them) and finished with a losing record and no postseason.

 

[deacvision7]

Then stop being such a pussy and jump in and add context.

This is about program building/destroying, not comparing numbers.

There are coaches who have a track record of building, some that have a track record of tearing down, and some that slide along sideways.

The real catch-22 is that Bzd has a history of building programs, but not to any place you'd say, oy, success. But the only program he arguably left worse than when he started was Air Force. Every other stop, including the Nuggets, and his other NBA franchise jobs, those schools/teams were better off when he left than when he arrived. The trouble becomes exactly where they were when he left is no great shakes.

You could argue he left or was canned (Denver) before his efforts were bore fruit, but it is frankly, not that compelling of an argument. This is where hope and prayer come in. The hope being Wake is some kind of jewel that due to being in the ACC and on tobacco road yada yada can bring out the Coach K or at least the best of Bzd. That's where the debate should be, IMO.

But mostly you've seemed to big a pussy to try that debate. It is easier to whine ad nauseum

So your context involves hypotheticals and day dreams? Fantastic.


I look at Jeff [Redacted]'s record on the road in conference games back to his first year and April, see abhorrent numbers and conclude that Jeff [Redacted] isn't a good coach at all.

He is a basketball stat nerd that can't relate to his players, nor can he effectively get his ideas across to them.

 

[RJKarl]

He had two NBA players on his last team at Colorado (and kudos to him for recruiting them) and finished with a losing record and no postseason.

He had nothing else and they did improve.....CU is one of the worst BCS conference jobs in basketball.