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Updates to the Joel?

Buttermaker said:
Interesting, Breslin was built the same year as the Joel and is roughly the same size (15k). What about that arena do you like so much?
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My guess: Student section seating. It is also a massive school, so 15k isn't crazy for them.
 
Ball State Deac said:
My guess: Student section seating. It is also a massive school, so 15k isn't crazy for them.
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That's gotta be it.

Texas has a boring, two level arena but plans to open a new one. Interestingly, according to Wiki the capacity can fluctuate from between 10k and 15k depending on crowd size. Maybe just a glorified curtain system. UT has like 50k undergrads, so 15k is nothing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moody_Center
 
It has a concert config where one end is blocked off by the stage.
 
Ball State Deac said:
My guess: Student section seating. It is also a massive school, so 15k isn't crazy for them.
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Michigan State gives us the perfect model per capita. They have 40k undergrads so you do the math!

But seriously look at the design. That has to be done right from go and it’s why civic centers don’t work. 4-5 risers of students and then a cut and lift so the first row of alums can sit and see over the top.

And Scooter is right about duke students. They are largely just like wake students. Which is why you need risers—forcing them not to sit. And you need demand—not everyone gets in. Only the hungriest. That’s what you want. You can’t change cattle (alums and students) you have to force them in using their tendencies against them. You want very few seats, convenient access in and from campus, folks stacked literally on top of each other. This is not ballet. We don’t care about your comfort. We want to win.
 
WokeandBroke said:
What's the obsession with it being "on campus"? It's not like it's Joe Robbie Stadium distance from Coral Gables. Which Wake student that wants to go can't get to the Joel?
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do they do the shuttle busses for the basketball games like they do with football?
 
No one is obsessed with it being on campus. It’s the size per our size and the seating structure (no cut for student risers, slow incline away, closed concourse), that I am obsessed with. It is the single worst stadium in college sports in my view. On campus would be great but seems we already screwed that up irreversibly. Get it on fringe or even where Joel is. But get it right this time.
 
Just raise Wake’s tuition by $5K and for the next 10 years. Let’s not pretend that the population who attends Wake these days will even notice the difference. Assuming 5K students that’s $250M raised right there.

Turn the Joel into an outdoor amphitheater and tailgate area, build a new 9-10K arena in the church across from Spry. The rest of the money can go to Hatch’s secret accounts down in the Caymans.
 
At first I though renovate the Joel. Then the more commits I read made me think more about streaming. I mean, I think I've watch nearly every game on TV this season. Certainly there's nothing better than being there live but I am content with watching from home and going to a couple of games a year. We will probably NEVER fill the Joel as it is currently constructed. IF Wake went with a smaller arena (9k - 10k) I'd guess about 1/3 would be filled with the usual old timers who've supported the team though thick or thin. Then another 4k-5k younger fans season ticket holders and then the last couple of thousand for General Admission. It would certainly eliminate the sea of Red or Blue for the big 3 games. I'm also thinking you could almost sell out the season tickets due to the novelty of a new arena. If Wake kept winning it would be a pretty awesome atmosphere.
I do like BillBraskys Idea of changing the Joel to an outdoor venue.
 
Just win. :dancindeac:

We could play our games in the Pit.... doesn't matter.

WINNING cures everything.
 
GoDeacsGo said:
At first I though renovate the Joel. Then the more commits I read made me think more about streaming. I mean, I think I've watch nearly every game on TV this season. Certainly there's nothing better than being there live but I am content with watching from home and going to a couple of games a year. We will probably NEVER fill the Joel as it is currently constructed. IF Wake went with a smaller arena (9k - 10k) I'd guess about 1/3 would be filled with the usual old timers who've supported the team though thick or thin. Then another 4k-5k younger fans season ticket holders and then the last couple of thousand for General Admission. It would certainly eliminate the sea of Red or Blue for the big 3 games. I'm also thinking you could almost sell out the season tickets due to the novelty of a new arena. If Wake kept winning it would be a pretty awesome atmosphere.
I do like BillBraskys Idea of changing the Joel to an outdoor venue.
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I think the great majority of folks here have agreed that we need fewer seats and a different configuration. The real question at hand is what makes more sense - spending a significant amount of money to substantially renovate the Joel or razing the Joel and starting from scratch.

We don't really know what the former looks like or what it would cost. To achieve what we have talked about - possibly lowering the floor, rearranging seating to make it more vertical and closer to the floor, adding boxes, changing the concourse structure, reducing seating to 10k or less, etc. - I assume it would cost $25M - $60M, depending on lots of variables.

I think it is safe to assume that building an all new arena would approach $200M, again, depending on lots of variables.

Deciding which is feasible or which is better is above my pay grade. Personally, I think the former makes the most sense - assuming the renovation goes far enough to address the issues we have raised, will result in an arena that kicks ass, and would carry us forward for another 20-30 years.
 
scooter84 said:
I think the great majority of folks here have agreed that we need fewer seats and a different configuration. The real question at hand is what makes more sense - spending a significant amount of money to substantially renovate the Joel or razing the Joel and starting from scratch.

We don't really know what the former looks like or what it would cost. To achieve what we have talked about - possibly lowering the floor, rearranging seating to make it more vertical and closer to the floor, adding boxes, changing the concourse structure, reducing seating to 10k or less, etc. - I assume it would cost $25M - $60M, depending on lots of variables.

I think it is safe to assume that building an all new arena would approach $200M, again, depending on lots of variables.

Deciding which is feasible or which is better is above my pay grade. Personally, I think the former makes the most sense - assuming the renovation goes far enough to address the issues we have raised, will result in an arena that kicks ass, and would carry us forward for another 20-30 years.
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Renovate, rebuild, whatever - just make sure we have enough to pay for a top tier coach and staff, because that is what really matters.
 
Nearly every example shows that *major* renovations cost nearly the same as building new. If we decide to renovate the Joel, location will probably be the determining factor, not cost.
 
Location whether we renovate or raze and build is current location.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Nearly every example shows that *major* renovations cost nearly the same as building new. If we decide to renovate the Joel, location will probably be the determining factor, not cost.
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What example has shown that? If that were true then it becomes a no-brainer. And I don't think location is an issue at all - we have determined the location of our athletic campus.
 
scooter84 said:
What example has shown that? If that were true then it becomes a no-brainer. And I don't think location is an issue at all - we have determined the location of our athletic campus.
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Here's Alabama who found that a full renovation would be $150M and brand new building would be $183M. $33M is still a lot of money but it's close enough that at that point you probably just build new which is what they decided. Not like there is some history we need to care about saving.

https://www.al.com/alabamabasketball/2022/02/details-of-new-alabama-basketball-arena-proposal.html
 
GoDeacsGo said:
At first I though renovate the Joel. Then the more commits I read made me think more about streaming. I mean, I think I've watch nearly every game on TV this season. Certainly there's nothing better than being there live but I am content with watching from home and going to a couple of games a year. We will probably NEVER fill the Joel as it is currently constructed. IF Wake went with a smaller arena (9k - 10k) I'd guess about 1/3 would be filled with the usual old timers who've supported the team though thick or thin. Then another 4k-5k younger fans season ticket holders and then the last couple of thousand for General Admission. It would certainly eliminate the sea of Red or Blue for the big 3 games. I'm also thinking you could almost sell out the season tickets due to the novelty of a new arena. If Wake kept winning it would be a pretty awesome atmosphere.
I do like BillBraskys Idea of changing the Joel to an outdoor venue.
Click to expand...

There will still be plenty of red, blue, orange, etc. when those teams are good and come to town. The resell value of the ticket will be way higher, but they will still show up.
 
Rafi said:
Renovate, rebuild, whatever - just make sure we have enough to pay for a top tier coach and staff and players, because that is what really matters.
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