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Updates to the Joel?

Wake does not own the Joel Annex, now Fairgrounds Annex. It's proximity may limit the tear down option.
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I may be a minority of one, but given the choice, I would rather see our money used to attract and keep great coaches. I know many think it could be smaller, but we did a pretty good job filling it in the 90's and early 200's. IMHO, a winning program that brings excitement is the key for attendance. Also making it smaller will reduce the number of people able to attend as our program improves. I agree we need a homecourt advantage, but I think we can have that at the Joel as our program grows. I totally agree with improvements that will enhances the game experience. To summarize, I would hope to increase attendance giving us even more vocal supporters than by reducing potential Wake fans. Every year population grows and we have more alums. Just my two cents.
 
Deaconblue said:
Wake does not own the Joel Annex, now Fairgrounds Annex. It's proximity may limit the tear down option.
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Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that Wake agreed to buy a building they aren't ever allowed to tear down.
 
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there's nothing that a good fire can't remedy

just ask every failing restaurant
 
Also, the buildings are approximately 270 yards apart. They're not even that close.

There are probably some easements for the circulation roads through both properties.
 
The Annex ain’t going anywhere anytime soon. It brings in too much money for the city. As long as the fair is here and the Thunderbirds are in town the annex is here to stay. Since 2016 the annex has 10x the revenue they bring in.
 
Deac65 said:
I may be a minority of one, but given the choice, I would rather see our money used to attract and keep great coaches. I know many think it could be smaller, but we did a pretty good job filling it in the 90's and early 200's. IMHO, a winning program that brings excitement is the key for attendance. Also making it smaller will reduce the number of people able to attend as our program improves. I agree we need a homecourt advantage, but I think we can have that at the Joel as our program grows. I totally agree with improvements that will enhances the game experience. To summarize, I would hope to increase attendance giving us even more vocal supporters than by reducing potential Wake fans. Every year population grows and we have more alums. Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Could see a path to renovation, it's all about price. If renovating the Joel to get what we want is similar $ to building new, don't see any reason to keep the current 33 year old facility. Also renovating will likely eliminate the chance at a great aesthetic of the exterior, which is bland.

Keeping the current capacity would be against all the attendance trends in college sports. Programs are not expanding capacity, they are cutting it.

We have 18 home games this year. Here are our conference home games this season, so far.
- vs. Pitt 5,300
- vs. BC 4,900
- vs. UNC 11,900
- vs. Duke 14,200
- vs. Cuse 7,200
- vs. FSU 4,800

We aren't even close to 14,000 for most games. Covid, Monday makeup, fertilizer explosions... point remains. Will be curious to see Miami and ND, but I bet its closer to 8K than 14K.

When we do reach capacity now, its a a bunch of visiting donks that take away from the experience. We aren't cutting out any long-time WF fans at reduced seating for any game. Students always get a block of seats, season-ticket holders always get a decent seat. And there is still room for another few thousand regulars or casuals to grow the fanbase.

8,000 is a good starting point. See no reason to be over 9,000. Here are some ACC comparisons. All of these schools have more students than WF. Of this list, would bet only Miami and BC have less non-student fans than us, though I imagine that changes as we emerge from the lost decade.
- Duke 9,314
- Notre Dame 9,149
- Clemson 9,000
- BC 8,606
- GT 8,600
- Miami 7,972
 
Honestly, just copy most of the Palestra design. It is a classic for a reason. Match the exterior with how we used brick on WF campus building. Copy the ceiling/archway design, windows and banner aesthetics of the interior. Love the idea of a video board/scoreboard not on top of the court, but could live with it.

Would change the seating structure so its closer to the court/more vertical so it feels like the crowd is on the court. Call it a day.

1920px-Palestra_2016.jpg
 
scooter84 said:
What example has shown that? If that were true then it becomes a no-brainer. And I don't think location is an issue at all - we have determined the location of our athletic campus.
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It’s something you notice if you follow the subject, across college and professional sports nearly every new construction project begins with the same question - build new or renovate, and with the exception of teams who are choosing to relocate, the cost to renovate is almost always equally expensive. The vast majority of renovations are based on either having an excellent location, or having a famous building facade.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
It’s something you notice if you follow the subject, across college and professional sports nearly every new construction project begins with the same question - build new or renovate, and with the exception of teams who are choosing to relocate, the cost to renovate is almost always equally expensive. The vast majority of renovations are based on either having an excellent location, or having a famous building facade.
Click to expand...

McCamish was a $50 million renovation and they were able to rebuild the entire seating bowl from scratch for that amount. Not sure this is accurate.
 
PaddyWF said:
Honestly, just copy most of the Palestra design. It is a classic for a reason. Match the exterior with how we used brick on WF campus building. Copy the ceiling/archway design, windows and banner aesthetics of the interior. Love the idea of a video board/scoreboard not on top of the court, but could live with it.

Would change the seating structure so its closer to the court/more vertical so it feels like the crowd is on the court. Call it a day.

1920px-Palestra_2016.jpg
Click to expand...

Can you imagine Rodney Rogers and Randolph Childress playing home games in that gym? Hah. Domination.

The one time we played at Temple, I guess similar environ, Rodney just WENT OFF.

Smaller gym (maybe down from 14K to 11K or so), tighter confines, raucous crowd - dominate.
 
WSSUgrad18 said:
The Annex ain’t going anywhere anytime soon. It brings in too much money for the city. As long as the fair is here and the Thunderbirds are in town the annex is here to stay. Since 2016 the annex has 10x the revenue they bring in.
Click to expand...

Do you work for the Thunderbirds or something ? You've said this like five times now.

BTW, Wake isn't going to interfere with the Thunderbirds or the Annex.
 
wfumike02 said:
McCamish was a $50 million renovation and they were able to rebuild the entire seating bowl from scratch for that amount. Not sure this is accurate.
Click to expand...

They have in-house dork architects and engineers.
 
PaddyWF said:
Could see a path to renovation, it's all about price. If renovating the Joel to get what we want is similar $ to building new, don't see any reason to keep the current 33 year old facility. Also renovating will likely eliminate the chance at a great aesthetic of the exterior, which is bland.

Keeping the current capacity would be against all the attendance trends in college sports. Programs are not expanding capacity, they are cutting it.

We have 18 home games this year. Here are our conference home games this season, so far.
- vs. Pitt 5,300
- vs. BC 4,900
- vs. UNC 11,900
- vs. Duke 14,200
- vs. Cuse 7,200
- vs. FSU 4,800

We aren't even close to 14,000 for most games. Covid, Monday makeup, fertilizer explosions... point remains. Will be curious to see Miami and ND, but I bet its closer to 8K than 14K.

When we do reach capacity now, its a a bunch of visiting donks that take away from the experience. We aren't cutting out any long-time WF fans at reduced seating for any game. Students always get a block of seats, season-ticket holders always get a decent seat. And there is still room for another few thousand regulars or casuals to grow the fanbase.

8,000 is a good starting point. See no reason to be over 9,000. Here are some ACC comparisons. All of these schools have more students than WF. Of this list, would bet only Miami and BC have less non-student fans than us, though I imagine that changes as we emerge from the lost decade.
- Duke 9,314
- Notre Dame 9,149
- Clemson 9,000
- BC 8,606
- GT 8,600
- Miami 7,972
Click to expand...

How did we get 14,200 for a Wednesday night game with Dook and 11,900 for a Saturday night game against UNC, a week and a half later?
 
Why is it so hard to wait on the companies that specialize in renovations. Let's see the plans. Let's see the plans on tear down and new. Seems like we all agree change is mandatory. I'm thinking we would be amazed at the options that those who specialize in this sector could and would present to us.
 
PaddyWF said:
Could see a path to renovation, it's all about price. If renovating the Joel to get what we want is similar $ to building new, don't see any reason to keep the current 33 year old facility. Also renovating will likely eliminate the chance at a great aesthetic of the exterior, which is bland.

Keeping the current capacity would be against all the attendance trends in college sports. Programs are not expanding capacity, they are cutting it.

We have 18 home games this year. Here are our conference home games this season, so far.
- vs. Pitt 5,300
- vs. BC 4,900
- vs. UNC 11,900
- vs. Duke 14,200
- vs. Cuse 7,200
- vs. FSU 4,800

We aren't even close to 14,000 for most games. Covid, Monday makeup, fertilizer explosions... point remains. Will be curious to see Miami and ND, but I bet its closer to 8K than 14K.

When we do reach capacity now, its a a bunch of visiting donks that take away from the experience. We aren't cutting out any long-time WF fans at reduced seating for any game. Students always get a block of seats, season-ticket holders always get a decent seat. And there is still room for another few thousand regulars or casuals to grow the fanbase.

8,000 is a good starting point. See no reason to be over 9,000. Here are some ACC comparisons. All of these schools have more students than WF. Of this list, would bet only Miami and BC have less non-student fans than us, though I imagine that changes as we emerge from the lost decade.
- Duke 9,314
- Notre Dame 9,149
- Clemson 9,000
- BC 8,606
- GT 8,600
- Miami 7,972
Click to expand...

Good points Paddy, I guess I'm just optimistic that with Forbes we may be able to attract more WF fans.
 
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