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Updates to the Joel?

BiffTannen said:
The point is that you made up the preposterous idea of Wellman doing an end around on the President and the BOT to bolster your argument.
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It's not preposterous at all. Wellman did shit all the time. They ruberstamped it. If it was their idea to buy, they are idiots too. I was going nuts on what a horrible idea it was. Crickets from everyone else at the time.

Big picture here is it's over. We screwed up and we drove it in the trees. Kick the ball back out to the fairway and let's move on. We can use the property for this or something else. But this 8 million error (+ the 5 we spent to build it) is gone. It shouldn't be used to hold us back.

The only question now is what is best for us over the next 30 years. It ain't the bloated Joel Coliseum.
 
How much should the Joel and its land been worth at the time of the sale?
 
BarcaDeac said:
How much should the Joel and its land been worth at the time of the sale?
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I don't know, but I pointed out that a land only price is $240,000 an acre for an irreplaceable large site less than a mile from the center of campus, and adjacent to a good deal of other land that the University owns and uses.

It has been estimated that a new arena would cost $150 million to build today. If it would have cost $100 million to build one at the time of purchase, I'd say Wake made out okay on the purchase of a very functional, somewhat depreciated arena that was in need of some updates, on top of cancelling their lease.
 
BarcaDeac said:
How much should the Joel and its land been worth at the time of the sale?
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Easy answer, as is true with any other real estate deal we all do, what a willing buyer will buy and what a willing seller will sell. In this case, $1 more than in anyone else would have paid for it--which is indeed $1.

The Joel was hemorrhaging money annually for the City. They were looking for any sucker to take it off their hands. They found only one.

I own several acres less than a 1/4 mile away. I will gladly sell it to any of you bozos for 50K/acre--let alone 250K. Good lawd.
 
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tigerswood said:
Random thought/question. How many sweet $400-500K condos could Wake sell on/near Deacon Blvd. Between wealthy alumni, parents, and other investors, I would think a bunch.
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Those would be great for game day/weekends, but that's a pretty undesirable location otherwise without major investment in mixed use development which may or may not pan out. Wake has been looking to develop this area for years, but there it sits as is.
 
Buttermaker said:
Those would be great for game day/weekends, but that's a pretty undesirable location otherwise without major investment in mixed use development which may or may not pan out. Wake has been looking to develop this area for years, but there it sits as is.
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And several developers have been asked to look at it. All smart business folks. They all passed.

Yet we dove right in at the recommendation of the failed baseball coach who never made it outside of snowing us to hire him in athletics.
 
donaldross said:
Easy answer, as is true with any other real estate deal we all do, what a willing buyer will buy and what a willing seller will sell. In this case, $1 more than in anyone else would have paid for it--which is indeed $1.

The Joel was hemorrhaging money annually for the City. They were looking for any sucker to take it off their hands. They found only one.

I own several acres less than a 1/4 mile away. I will gladly sell it to any of you bozos for 50K/acre--let alone 250K. Good lawd.
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Does it have a functioning basketball arena on it ?
 
Buttermaker said:
Those would be great for game day/weekends, but that's a pretty undesirable location otherwise without major investment in mixed use development which may or may not pan out. Wake has been looking to develop this area for years, but there it sits as is.
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Yeah, who would want to buy a $500K condo there? You can drive a couple of miles south of the Joel and purchase one (likely for less money) in a part of town that has far more to offer.
 
BiffTannen said:
Does it have a functioning basketball arena on it ?
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No it doesn't. And anyone in real estate will tell you that the Joel property will be worth more after the high six figure expense of ripping that disaster down occurs. Nice frontage for a CVS.
 
RacerDeac said:
Change the blue to black, add some risers and elevated seating above them, and that's just about perfect. Situate it on the existing Joel parking lot so that you see McCreary tower out the window and then knock down the Joel once complete. Light up McCreary tower at night with a nice DMX controlled light show.
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I don't like the design at all. Why would you have an upper deck over the end and keep the courtside side open? The court should be turned 90 degrees.
 
Why do you find it ridiculous that it costs money to run an arena ? Do you think it's possible the City ran it in a way that might have focused on civic pride and responsibility and the University might run it in a more cost effective way ?
 
donaldross said:
Easy answer, as is true with any other real estate deal we all do, what a willing buyer will buy and what a willing seller will sell. In this case, $1 more than in anyone else would have paid for it--which is indeed $1.

The Joel was hemorrhaging money annually for the City. They were looking for any sucker to take it off their hands. They found only one.
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By that logic the city should have just given it away at an auction for nothing. I think it would help if you used real numbers: what should the city have sold it for? What should the city’s financial partner, Wake Forest University, have paid? $1?
 
at the time of the sale of the Joel, it was losing about $700K annually to the city. There were over $9 million in future capital needs, with a potential for $4-5 million more to make it more competitive in the market (i'm guessing concerts and whatnot). The outstanding debt was almost $7 M.
 
donaldross said:
Easy answer, as is true with any other real estate deal we all do, what a willing buyer will buy and what a willing seller will sell. In this case, $1 more than in anyone else would have paid for it--which is indeed $1.

The Joel was hemorrhaging money annually for the City. They were looking for any sucker to take it off their hands. They found only one.

I own several acres less than a 1/4 mile away. I will gladly sell it to any of you bozos for 50K/acre--let alone 250K. Good lawd.
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LOCATION.1/4 mile away isn't frontage on University Parkway.

Better comparable is what would it cost to buy the Courtyard Marriott property?

What would, say Hilton pay for the corner lot at University Parkway and Deacon Boulevard if zoned for hotel?
 
Deaconblue said:
LOCATION.1/4 mile away isn't frontage on University Parkway.

Better comparable is what would it cost to buy the Courtyard Marriott property?

What would, say Hilton pay for the corner lot at University Parkway and Deacon Boulevard if zoned for hotel?
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Probably 2 million -- again, after the high six figure/low 7 to rip down the Joel is spent.
 
ChrisL68 said:
There is enough frontage there for at least 3 hotels and valuable parking space behind.
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I don't know if you've noticed but no one is exactly building hotels these days, especially not that far from an interstate. More likely buyer is a top golf, upscale strip mall or fast food joints.

But I do concede that if we ripped down the Joel, we could sell and recoup some of our money. Probably just a net million or so so we should probably just keep it.

The point here though is the fact that we bought this is simply a nonfactor on what we ought do now.

What we ought do now is build a 7-8K seat cracker box with risers for students somewhere--anywhere--near campus. We need it close enough we can walk and practice where we play. Practicing where you play is another huge advantage.
 
Ball State Deac said:
This is the largest shift I've seen on these board re the Joel. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but for years I thought people were arguing that the Joel was great and was sold out all the time when we were good. I remember sitting in an empty row in the upper bowl when we were ranked No. 1 in the country (or really high) against Va Tech.
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The argument's been raging for literally twenty-five years on this board and the boards that came before it. Eventually, the people clamoring for a new arena were going to be right because the Joel was going to be twenty-five years older. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. . . .
 
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