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Wake Forest Offseason Basketball Thread: Deacs in Inaugural Myrtle Beach Invitational

RacerDeac said:
...Weaknesses that Manning himself hasn't admitted to or bothered to try to improve over the course of the last 4 seasons.
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Apparently you have greater insight into the brain of Danny Manning than most. Perhaps you could share additional workings of his brain with the rest of us.
IMHO, Manning accepting a mentor is at least an indirect acknowledgement that he could use a little help with some aspects of coaching. Hiring Ernie Nestor is at least recognizing that there are areas for improvement, and making some attempt at making improvements. Level.of success is TBD.
 
Deaconblue said:
Apparently you have greater insight into the brain of Danny Manning than most. Perhaps you could share additional workings of his brain with the rest of us.
IMHO, Manning accepting a mentor is at least an indirect acknowledgement that he could use a little help with some aspects of coaching. Hiring Ernie Nestor is at least recognizing that there are areas for improvement, and making some attempt at making improvements. Level.of success is TBD.
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Bigger question: WHY are we doing this at an ACC school? The man is making millions of dollars in salary and we're having to give him a "little help with some aspects of coaching"? Seriously?
 
coredeac said:
Bigger question: WHY are we doing this at an ACC school? The man is making millions of dollars in salary and we're having to give him a "little help with some aspects of coaching"? Seriously?
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It certainly is far from ideal. However, my preference is that the Wake Forest basketball team have the best chance to win, given all the current circumstances. If that means a mentor for the HC this season, then this is what we get.

If there isn't significant improvement then Wake needs to be on the coaching carousel next spring.
 
RacerDeac said:
As I read around the Wake Forest web, particularly the more rosy glassed groups on FB and 247, it appears the Wellman plan is working out as well as could be expected. Many are super excited to have Nestor back and are looking forward to big improvements as a result. Lots of reminiscing about the good ole days. No one is stopping to ask why we are paying Wellman millions of dollars.
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Could have stopped there.
 
FWIW, and I know nobody cares about my internal struggles, it is starting to sink in for me that Wake Forest basketball remains a complete mess. This Nestor news, while somewhat comforting, definitely seems like a Wellman attempt to buy Manning some more time.

I had been relatively optimistic about the upcoming season, and I still am (at least relative to the rest of you miserable people), but it feels like we're just passing time until an inevitable Manning firing, followed by a lackluster hire that does nothing to "unite the clans" or improve our long-term outlook.

It feels like the best case scenario is that this team outperforms expectations (and is fun to watch), but still doesn't make the NCAAs. Manning gets fired (who knows what happens w/ Wellman) and somebody genuinely exciting (who distinguishes himself during this season) comes in to take over.

But I think the more likely scenario is:
We suck really bad, Manning gets fired, and we bring in another shitty coach
-or- (and even worse)
We are really "meh" this season, the good players on the roster leave (Hoard/Sarr/Brown), Manning doesn't get fired and we are historically awful next season

I can already predict the next post from PhDeac... "This is why the more forward thinking of us wanted Manning fired at the end of last season." Fine. I still don't think that was the right time to make the move... Mostly because I can't think of who we'd have been able to hire that could be successful. I still don't know who that hire will be, but I am fine with getting another season to try to figure it out. Maybe it's Ryan Odom, but his team is likely going to take a significant step backwards after losing 3 guards to graduation. Maybe it's Wes Miller. I just have concerns about Odom and Miller stepping up to the ACC level from their current gigs. But clearly (to me at least), those are better options than a retread from somewhere else (unless that retread is Pitino or Donovan - yeah, right).

Apologies... Just felt like spewing this out in public.
 
DeacsATS said:
FWIW, and I know nobody cares about my internal struggles, it is starting to sink in for me that Wake Forest basketball remains a complete mess. This Nestor news, while somewhat comforting, definitely seems like a Wellman attempt to buy Manning some more time.

I had been relatively optimistic about the upcoming season, and I still am (at least relative to the rest of you miserable people), but it feels like we're just passing time until an inevitable Manning firing, followed by a lackluster hire that does nothing to "unite the clans" or improve our long-term outlook.

It feels like the best case scenario is that this team outperforms expectations (and is fun to watch), but still doesn't make the NCAAs. Manning gets fired (who knows what happens w/ Wellman) and somebody genuinely exciting (who distinguishes himself during this season) comes in to take over.

But I think the more likely scenario is:
We suck really bad, Manning gets fired, and we bring in another shitty coach
-or- (and even worse)
We are really "meh" this season, the good players on the roster leave (Hoard/Sarr/Brown), Manning doesn't get fired and we are historically awful next season

I can already predict the next post from PhDeac... "This is why the more forward thinking of us wanted Manning fired at the end of last season." Fine. I still don't think that was the right time to make the move... Mostly because I can't think of who we'd have been able to hire that could be successful. I still don't know who that hire will be, but I am fine with getting another season to try to figure it out. Maybe it's Ryan Odom, but his team is likely going to take a significant step backwards after losing 3 guards to graduation. Maybe it's Wes Miller. I just have concerns about Odom and Miller stepping up to the ACC level from their current gigs. But clearly (to me at least), those are better options than a retread from somewhere else (unless that retread is Pitino or Donovan - yeah, right).

Apologies... Just felt like spewing this out in public.
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I think you are forgetting how low that bar is at Wake.
 
All of the above is fair, ATS. I also try to stay relatively objective, but it is infuriating to see all of this unfold after being convinced in his second year that DM was way in over his head. Fast forward to year five and we have a complete mess on our hands. Fast forward to the end of this season when we finish 14th or 15th in conference...

The real problem is the BOT and RW. Until we get serious about our once proud B-Ball program again we are going to stay in the cellar. Maybe there's a grand plan we don't know about as RW has generally been successful as AD, but the last 8-9 years have been a disaster for our school's flagship sport and I don't think any AD could recover from that anywhere else. RW is dribbling out the clock and until he's gone, we're basically fucked. Only thing to do is hope that DM can pull a rabbit out of his hat, but it's obvious at this point that he's not the guy to lead us back to relevancy.
 
RChildress107 said:
I think you are forgetting how low that bar is at Wake.
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Nah, I'm talking early years Bz bad. Which, as you often point out, was really bad.

Without disparaging players by name... We could potentially have a ton of wings (SG/SF types) with zero bigs next year, aside from Okeke (a walk-on) and Oguama (a project).

If Hoard is one and done and Brown improves enough to turn pro (I believe both of these things to be true), it will be ugly next year (with or without Sarr).
 
After watching this for four years, where do you rank Danny Manning among ACC coaches? That's what I did after last season, and I'm not pleased with the results. We should do what NC State did: hire a rising star who wants to come in and compete. Manning isn't an elite recruiter, and he's possibly the worst in-game coach in the ACC. I continue to believe Wake has so much going for it as a university playing in the nation's best conference that any competent coach can bring in ACC level talent and compete. What will continue to hold us back is how inept the coaching is with that talent. Manning is what he is, and it's not changing.
 
DeacsATS said:
Nah, I'm talking early years Bz bad. Which, as you often point out, was really bad.

Without disparaging players by name... We could potentially have a ton of wings (SG/SF types) with zero bigs next year, aside from Okeke (a walk-on) and Oguama (a project).

If Hoard is one and done and Brown improves enough to turn pro (I believe both of these things to be true), it will be ugly next year (with or without Sarr).
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1. If that’s true, this is going to be a pretty good year. If Sarr’s good enough to go pro as well then it’s going to be a great year.

2. I think even if he rolls out Chill, Wright, Mucius, Massoud, and an unskilled big, the floor is still higher than [Redacted]’s first two years. Hopefully we never have to find out.
 
I try to remain positive and always look forward to at least the start of basketball season, but holy fucking shit, I'm getting to the point where I want someone to just put me out of my Wake Forest men's basketball misery. I tend to agree with those that think until Wellman is gone, it doesn't matter who the head coach is so why not keep Manning around. With that said, other posters make sense that any deep pocket donors that step up for a Manning buyout, won't let Wellman lead the next charge.

To paraphrase Michael Corleone from The Godfather...What I want...what's most important to me is that I have a guarantee that Wellman gets fired. Wellman has got to go. It is past time for him to retire or have gotten fired. He has ruined Wake Forest basketball. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

ETA: Nathan Hatch can eat a dick, too!
 
Deaconblue said:
Apparently you have greater insight into the brain of Danny Manning than most. Perhaps you could share additional workings of his brain with the rest of us.
IMHO, Manning accepting a mentor is at least an indirect acknowledgement that he could use a little help with some aspects of coaching. Hiring Ernie Nestor is at least recognizing that there are areas for improvement, and making some attempt at making improvements. Level.of success is TBD.
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I don't need to know his brain. I can see the results. I can watch his PC's. He doesn't really point at himself or his need to get better. He never points to specific goal, usually deflecting to some talk about preparing kids for life. We have no documentation that he has gone to learn a new system or spent time with other coaches like Dino did. We don't have any players attending camps/coaching outside of Wake in the offseason like we have in the past. We don't have any quotes from Danny saying that he acknowledges a problem and that he is doing X to fix it. It's not hard to see. You're going out of your way to give him the benefit of the doubt when the failure is plainly visible. I mean hell, you are one of a handful that actually think that Manning is behind the Nestor hire. Meanwhile, his "quote" in the release is about as generic as they come. If Manning was behind the hire, don't you think he's have some specifics on why he hired Nestor and how he plans to use him? It was written for him.

Release from Wake Forest:

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. – The Wake Forest men’s basketball team announced Wednesday (Oct. 31) the addition of Ernie Nestor to the staff as Special Assistant to the Head Coach. Nestor joins the Demon Deacon program for the third time, having previously served as an assistant coach from 1980-85 and from 1994-01.

“I am very pleased and excited to be joining Coach Danny Manning’s staff,” said Nestor. “I am looking forward to supporting the basketball program in any way that I can assist. Coach Manning is building a strong foundation for the future and I am excited to get started.”

Nestor has over 40 years of Division I coaching experience and has worked in every Power 5 conference over his career. He has 11 years of head coaching experience, leading George Mason from 1989-93 and Elon from 2004-09. He guided George Mason to the 1989 CAA championship and a NCAA Tournament appearance and was the 2006 Southern Conference Coach of the Year when he led Elon to the SoCon North Division title.

In addition to his two stints as an assistant coach at Wake Forest, Nestor also served on the staffs at James Madison, California, South Carolina, Penn State, Missouri and Navy during his four-decade career. He also spent one season working in the NBA as an advance scout with the New Jersey Nets. Nestor most recently was an assistant coach at Navy for five seasons from 2013-17 before announcing his retirement following the 2016-17 season.

In Nestor’s first tenure with the Demon Deacons, as an assistant coach on Carl Tacy’s staff from 1980-85, the program played in three NCAA Tournaments, including a run to the 1984 Elite Eight, and made two NIT appearances. He returned to the program as an assistant coach on Dave Odom’s staff for eight seasons from 1994-01, helping the Deacs reach five NCAA Tournaments, win two ACC Championships and win the 2000 NIT Championship. Among the players he coached while at Wake Forest are current associate head coach Randolph Childress and College Basketball Hall of Famer Tim Duncan.

“We are excited to add Coach Nestor to our staff,” said head coach Danny Manning. “Having over 40 years of coaching experience, he brings tremendous knowledge and experience to our program. His insight will be beneficial to our staff and our players. We are glad to once again have Ernie and his wife, Janet, in the Demon Deacon basketball family.”

Wake Forest opens the 2018-19 season on Nov. 2 with an exhibition contest against Belmont Abbey. The regular season begins on Nov. 10 as the Demon Deacons host North Carolina A&T.
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RChildress107 said:
1. If that’s true, this is going to be a pretty good year. If Sarr’s good enough to go pro as well then it’s going to be a great year.

2. I think even if he rolls out Chill, Wright, Mucius, Massoud, and an unskilled big, the floor is still higher than [Redacted]’s first two years. Hopefully we never have to find out.
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Markus Fultz says hello.
 
DC's take on Nestor:
https://mytakeonwhatever.com/2018/10/31/wake-turns-to-nestor-once-again/


Emphasis mine.
And though the delicate politics of the situation would preclude anyone from saying this – not head coach Danny Manning, not Athletics Director Ron Wellman, and certainly not Ernie Nestor himself – it has become apparent to many over these past four years that when it comes to directing an ACC basketball program, Danny Manning needs all the help he can get.

When I first saw Wake’s new slogan for the basketball program was #newbeginnings, I began to wonder if early signs of Alzheimer’s were setting in.
.............

The problem at Wake was that Manning, from all we could tell given the closed nature of the program, wasn’t showing growth as a coach. The mistakes he was making in 2014 were still being made in 2018.

He’s a proud man, and with pride comes stubbornness. Meanwhile one player after another was bolting the program for pastures green or otherwise, requiring Wake to depend on inexperienced talent season after disappointing season.

Those searching for eternal youth haven’t been checking out the Wake basketball roster.

So now somebody – and I would have to guess this is Wellman’s hand on the controls – has convinced Manning of the need to bring in an old head to help with X’s and O’s, game management, player development and the overall ins and outs of running a major-college basketball program.
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DeacsATS said:
Read that earlier today... Was surprised by the last line where Collins says, "I can’t tell you the last time I’ve felt this good about the direction of the Wake basketball program." The rest of the article didn't really have that tone.
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Yeah, I mean, at some level, at least we know that Wellman realizes the last 8 years aren't acceptable. That's reason for hope I guess? Plus, DC is buddies with Nestor. DC was buddies with Grobe too. He was probably less objective than he otherwise would have been.
 
RChildress107 said:
1. If that’s true, this is going to be a pretty good year. If Sarr’s good enough to go pro as well then it’s going to be a great year.

2. I think even if he rolls out Chill, Wright, Mucius, Massoud, and an unskilled big, the floor is still higher than [Redacted]’s first two years. Hopefully we never have to find out.
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Not sure why I'm going down this rabbit hole, but...

1- We can have have a couple of guys be good enough to get drafted without having much team success. See BC last year (KP#77, 17-14/7-11 heading into ACC Tourney). And Hoard could be drafted largely on potential vs. results. I'm admittedly probably reaching w/ Brown, but I think he'll make a big leap this year... Probably not NBA level, but that hasn't kept our players from leaving in the recent past.
2- I disagree... That 2011 team was perhaps the worst Wake team ever (KP #259) and had a similarly young, but not wholly untalented roster. 2012's roster looks even worse, but was slightly better on KP (#211). Call 2020 (next year) somewhere in that range with the roster we're talking about.
 
RacerDeac said:
Yeah, I mean, at some level, at least we know that Wellman realizes the last 8 years aren't acceptable. That's reason for hope I guess? Plus, DC is buddies with Nestor. DC was buddies with Grobe too. He was probably less objective than he otherwise would have been.
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Just felt weird. Praise of Nestor. Rips on Manning (and Wellman, to a degree). Talks about how limited the role is for Nestor. Finished by saying he feels good?

Was more all over the place than one of my typical posts (where I start by trying to argue one thing and then convince myself of something else by the end).
 
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