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Duck Dynasty

Alright, so here's something I sent a friend who was asking a similar question several months ago.

Why I, as a priest, support gay rights/ordination/marriage-

There are several reasons ways in which I reconcile my social/theological views of homosexuality and same-sex marriage with my Christian faith:
1) Everyone takes the vast majority of Leviticus with a grain of salt, so to pick and choose what parts we apply to our lives is very problematic. Furthermore, the context matters. When you've got a culture obsessed with being "clean," they will have certain neuroses, perhaps this is one of them. Also, the idea of sexual orientation didn't really exist then, it's a modern idea. Homosexual acts existed, homosexuals existed, but the idea that "some guys prefer marriage/love/sex with men instead of women" didn't exist. So it's awfully hard to say that the Bible says something about something that didn't exist at the time. I forget which Archbishop of Canterbury it was, but one of them was asked after WWII about "what the Bible says about the use of nuclear weapons," and he said "Nothing. Nuclear weapons didn't exist when the Bible was written." And he was right, in the sense that the Bible doesn't offer a proof text for many issues (pornography, technological innovations, privacy issues, nukes, and sexual orientation).

2) Other Biblical passages also have contexts that aren't nearly as clear as people try to make them out to be; furthermore, the Greek of NT passages isn't very clear at all. And again, orientation wasn't the issue at hand. If you really want to get into this point, there are a lot of resources out there. But this argument needs to be taken in totality, just not based on any single one of these points- but most people only go as far as #1 and 2.

3) God is always pushing us to new places, see Acts 11:1-18. Boundaries are always coming down. Plus, as St. Paul put it, there is no Jew/Greek, male/female, and I think we can add gay/straight, latino/white, black/asian, uneducated/educated, rich/poor, etc to that list.

4) The Church and the faithful have been wrong before. Even on issues of the Bible. Philemon (among other texts of the Bible) very clearly seems to uphold the institution of slavery. The Bible was used pre (and post) Civil War to defend the lack of rights of slaves and their enslavement. The Bible was (and still is) used to ban women from the priesthood. But we have sensed and discerned God through the Holy Spirit leading us into new truths.

5) The Bible isn't the Word of God, it is the word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. Too many Christians confuse the capitalization. Scripture was written by imperfect vessels, even if guided by the Spirit. There are lots of issues with the Bible as we have it, it's been translated, redacted, etc. There are known errors in it from when scribes made mistakes in copying it by hand. But the larger point is that we look to Jesus over the Bible. Jesus never condemns homosexuality (which again, didn't exist then), but he was about love and radical hospitality.

6) This is the big one- do you believe in continuing revelation or not? When the last stroke of the Bible was penned, did God become silent? Can God lead us to new truths or new understandings? If you say there is no continuing revelation, then the Bible contains all we need. But the Bible isn't enough, if it was, God would have just stayed with the OT, but God gave us Godself in Jesus because we weren't getting it, and God came to us in Jesus. The Incarnation is a bigger window into the being of God than words written by humans of their experiences (and not face to face ones like Jesus had) of God. And if you do believe in continuing revelation (which everyone does if you ask them if they believe in the Holy Spirit), then we must acknowledge that God leads us into new places (as mentioned above about women and slavery).

7) God, in Scripture and divine revelation, cares about love, justice, peace (shalom), and the coming and furthering of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. As long as it is consensual and healthy, I really don't think God cares who is giving what to whom in the bedroom. What if Christians put the same time and effort into ending homelessness that they did promoting inequality? Even if we assumed that homosexuality is a sin, it certainly isn't a worse sin than a culture that has starving children or homeless veterans. The preoccupation with sex is the issue, not homosexuality. Victoria's Secret, Playboy, Maxim, etc are all signs of our over-sexed culture, so it's no surprise that in our theology, we focus on sex too. But I am convinced that God really doesn't care about our sex lives nearly as much as we do.

Hope that helps.
 
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deacphan said:
"Why hast RJ forsaken me?"

gabe20kapler.jpg


-another ripped jew who's good with the lumber
Click to expand...

I never said Jew's didn't have good lumber.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Alright, so here's something I sent a friend who was asking a similar question several months ago.

Why I, as a priest, support gay rights/ordination/marriage-

There are several reasons ways in which I reconcile my social/theological views of homosexuality and same-sex marriage with my Christian faith:
1) Everyone takes the vast majority of Leviticus with a grain of salt, so to pick and choose what parts we apply to our lives is very problematic. Furthermore, the context matters. When you've got a culture obsessed with being "clean," they will have certain neuroses, perhaps this is one of them. Also, the idea of sexual orientation didn't really exist then, it's a modern idea. Homosexual acts existed, homosexuals existed, but the idea that "some guys prefer marriage/love/sex with men instead of women" didn't exist. So it's awfully hard to say that the Bible says something about something that didn't exist at the time. I forget which Archbishop of Canterbury it was, but one of them was asked after WWII about "what the Bible says about the use of nuclear weapons," and he said "Nothing. Nuclear weapons didn't exist when the Bible was written." And he was right, in the sense that the Bible doesn't offer a proof text for many issues (pornography, technological innovations, privacy issues, nukes, and sexual orientation).

2) Other Biblical passages also have contexts that aren't nearly as clear as people try to make them out to be; furthermore, the Greek of NT passages isn't very clear at all. And again, orientation wasn't the issue at hand. If you really want to get into this point, there are a lot of resources out there. But this argument needs to be taken in totality, just not based on any single one of these points- but most people only go as far as #1 and 2.

3) God is always pushing us to new places, see Acts 11:1-18. Boundaries are always coming down. Plus, as St. Paul put it, there is no Jew/Greek, male/female, and I think we can add gay/straight, latino/white, black/asian, uneducated/educated, rich/poor, etc to that list.

4) The Church and the faithful have been wrong before. Even on issues of the Bible. Philemon (among other texts of the Bible) very clearly seems to uphold the institution of slavery. The Bible was used pre (and post) Civil War to defend the lack of rights of slaves and their enslavement. The Bible was (and still is) used to ban women from the priesthood. But we have sensed and discerned God through the Holy Spirit leading us into new truths.

5) The Bible isn't the Word of God, it is the word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. Too many Christians confuse the capitalization. Scripture was written by imperfect vessels, even if guided by the Spirit. There are lots of issues with the Bible as we have it, it's been translated, redacted, etc. There are known errors in it from when scribes made mistakes in copying it by hand. But the larger point is that we look to Jesus over the Bible. Jesus never condemns homosexuality (which again, didn't exist then), but he was about love and radical hospitality.

6) This is the big one- do you believe in continuing revelation or not? When the last stroke of the Bible was penned, did God become silent? Can God lead us to new truths or new understandings? If you say there is no continuing revelation, then the Bible contains all we need. But the Bible isn't enough, if it was, God would have just stayed with the OT, but God gave us Godself in Jesus because we weren't getting it, and God came to us in Jesus. The Incarnation is a bigger window into the being of God than words written by humans of their experiences (and not face to face ones like Jesus had) of God. And if you do believe in continuing revelation (which everyone does if you ask them if they believe in the Holy Spirit), then we must acknowledge that God leads us into new places (as mentioned above about women and slavery).

7) God, in Scripture and divine revelation, cares about love, justice, peace (shalom), and the coming and furthering of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. As long as it is consensual and healthy, I really don't think God cares who is giving what to whom in the bedroom. What if Christians put the same time and effort into ending homelessness that they did promoting inequality? Even if we assumed that homosexuality is a sin, it certainly isn't a worse sin than a culture that has starving children or homeless veterans. The preoccupation with sex is the issue, not homosexuality. Victoria's Secret, Playboy, Maxim, etc are all signs of our over-sexed culture, so it's no surprise that in our theology, we focus on sex too. But I am convinced that God really doesn't care about our sex lives nearly as much as we do.

Hope that helps.
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Thanks for that, Rev. Part of me thinks I would feel very much at home in the Episcopal Church, but the other part of me feels loyal to the faint echoes of progressive baptists from my own faith tradition. As it is, I can't feel a strong enough urge to actively seek out a faith community in NC. It makes me a little sad sometimes because the Church was a huge influence to shaping me into who I am today.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Thanks for that, Rev. Part of me thinks I would feel very much at home in the Episcopal Church, but the other part of me feels loyal to the faint echoes of progressive baptists from my own faith tradition. As it is, I can't feel a strong enough urge to actively seek out a faith community in NC. It makes me a little sad sometimes because the Church was a huge influence to shaping me into who I am today.
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I think most people would be at home in the Episcopal Church. I'd suggest just going and trying it (Episcopal or progressive Baptist) out. You're not likely going to get that urge by not doing anything, but it seems like you've at least got a small one. Also, our culture tends to view Church from the point of view of a consumer- where we get something out of Church. But it really is just about worship. Don't worry about joining a community or anything like that (yet)- just go, pray, sing, worship. Give the Spirit more of a chance to do it's thing. If nothing else, find a place that has really good preaching and go for that. It's a process, you don't have to get there all at once.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Thanks for that, Rev. Part of me thinks I would feel very much at home in the Episcopal Church, but the other part of me feels loyal to the faint echoes of progressive baptists from my own faith tradition. As it is, I can't feel a strong enough urge to actively seek out a faith community in NC. It makes me a little sad sometimes because the Church was a huge influence to shaping me into who I am today.
Click to expand...

RevDeac06 said:
I think most people would be at home in the Episcopal Church. I'd suggest just going and trying it (Episcopal or progressive Baptist) out. You're not likely going to get that urge by not doing anything, but it seems like you've at least got a small one. Also, our culture tends to view Church from the point of view of a consumer- where we get something out of Church. But it really is just about worship. Don't worry about joining a community or anything like that (yet)- just go, pray, sing, worship. Give the Spirit more of a chance to do it's thing. If nothing else, find a place that has really good preaching and go for that. It's a process, you don't have to get there all at once.
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...these two posts resonated with me more than you both know. thanks.
 
also, Rev, awesome post above, too. I hope 73 reads it and opens his mind to some new ideas. I can't imagine reading that and not reevaluating how you see things.
 
Not to be sarcastic, and probably speaks more to my ignorance than anything, but I didn't know Progressive Baptist was a real thing.

We've recently joined an Episcopal church in HP and gave loved it. As someone who grew up Lutheran, it was a difficult move, but rewarding.
 
bym051d said:
Not to be sarcastic, and probably speaks more to my ignorance than anything, but I didn't know Progressive Baptist was a real thing.

We've recently joined an Episcopal church in HP and gave loved it. As someone who grew up Lutheran, it was a difficult move, but rewarding.
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It's not a specific denomination (though Alliance of Baptists is very progressive), but there is a strand of progressivism that runs throughout the history of the baptist tradition. Wake Forest's G McLeod "Mac" Bryan was a good example.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
It's not a specific denomination (though Alliance of Baptists is very progressive), but there is a strand of progressivism that runs throughout the history of the baptist tradition. Wake Forest's G McLeod "Mac" Bryan was a good example.
Click to expand...

There is a Progressive Baptist national convention.
http://www.pnbc.org

There are plenty of progressive baptist churches out there, which is what I went to growing up. I kind of hate the stigma the word now has because of the likes of the SBC and mega churches. It's so bad my parents almost changed churches when we were kids just so my sister and I wouldn't have to fend off the questions. Shoot I had to explain a lot of it to my father in law because he grew up in an overbearingly conservative baptist church and was concerned about who his daughter was dating.

ETA: in the second paragraph when I say progressive I am not speaking of the convention, but am using the generic term. My church left the SBC in 1998 (big enough news to make the NY times and LA times) for the cooperative baptist fellowship.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/25/u...-set-to-leave-fold.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/sep/26/local/me-26628
 
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73deac said:
Thanks Revdeac, I am always open to discuss a topic with someone with more insight than me. BeachBum, no the bible doesnt say anything about the government not allowing gay marriage. I am not explaining my thoughts well enough. I was under the assumption that the bible is against homosexuality, therefore wouldnt a priest whom i assume believes the bible, be against homosexuality as well. (and also be against gay marriage)
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isn't that what the sodom and gomorrah allegory is about?
 
RevDeac06 said:
STATUS UPDATE- Boss is sick, I am now preaching Christmas Eve. Not sure that ROIDS JESUS will be in the sermon though...
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Don't know why, but the fact that you call him/her "boss" amuses me.

Sent from my C6606 using Tapatalk
 
A perfect example about what is truly the "Word of God" is to listen to the differences of how two pastors (Rev and Mebane) describe it.

If these two disagree so widely and with such passion, how can anyone claim to truly know?
 
RJKarl said:
A perfect example about what is truly the "Word of God" is to listen to the differences of how two pastors (Rev and Mebane) describe it.

If these two disagree so widely and with such passion, how can anyone claim to truly know?
Click to expand...

Because I'm right. Eta - see John 1 as the proof text, and countless theologians (Augustine, Barth etc) for exposition.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
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