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BC @ WFU – Sat 10/22 – 3:30 ACCN

bym051d said:
The double fumble is such a dumb rule. There should be no full change in possession until the play is over. A just rule would’ve resulted in a turnover on downs.
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It is a suck rule for sure.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
When was this the rule? I know until like the early 1990s the defense couldn’t advance fumbles that occurred behind the line of scrimmage but my understanding was you could always advance a fumble that occurred beyond the line.
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That could be correct, I thought years ago you couldn’t advance a fumble at all, but I could be wrong.

i think arguing that if you recover a fumble and try to advance it you can‘t possible lose possession is silly. If you’re a ball carrier hold onto the ball. If a guy intercepts a pass and is running it back and it’s fumbled should it not be a live ball?
 
One reason this is controversial is that BC got a first down after the double fumbles even though the ball was 10 yards behind where they snapped it. If the down and distance had been incremented from the down and distance to go, it would have been Wake ball, because the ball was snapped by BC on 4th down with a long distance to the line to gain.

IMHO, the real issue is that BC got a new set of downs after failing to advance the ball past the line to gain. The offense had the ball at the beginning and end of the play. Activity during the play shouldn't change the offense's requirement to advance the ball past the line to gain in four official downs.
 
Deaconblue said:
The offense had the ball at the beginning and end of the play. Activity during the play shouldn't change the offense's requirement to advance the ball past the line to gain in four official downs.
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That is false. Possession changed. BC lost possession of the ball, and Wake gained possession. We advanced the ball toward the endzone and fumbled it away. The ball was live the entire time.
 
That same scenario happens all the time when a receiver catches a pass, establishes possession, makes a “football move”, and fumbles the ball. With your implication all those fumbles would have to be ruled incompletions.
 
ChrisL68 said:
It's nice to be able to talk about a fluky play that went against us where we shook it off and still won by four touchdowns
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Yes, we are at a point now where we can play sloppy and still beat half the conference, it’s nice. Just so happens we finish our season with the other half of the conference where we have to play clean.
 
ChrisL68 said:
It's nice to be able to talk about a fluky play that went against us where we shook it off and still won by four touchdowns
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That one led to a score. Not only that but there was that fumble that they incorrectly called a false start penalty that I think also kept a BC TD drive alive.
 
I didn’t read the game thread so I’m sure that was thoroughly complained about.
 
Jurkevic’s butt was down as he let go of the ball.
 
liveanddiedeac said:
That could be correct, I thought years ago you couldn’t advance a fumble at all, but I could be wrong.

i think arguing that if you recover a fumble and try to advance it you can‘t possible lose possession is silly. If you’re a ball carrier hold onto the ball. If a guy intercepts a pass and is running it back and it’s fumbled should it not be a live ball?
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I think it’s the new set of downs that was the killer. But it has to be that way if you are going to allow advancing the ball. It’s pretty brutal for the defense otherwise I think we hold them to single digits.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
That same scenario happens all the time when a receiver catches a pass, establishes possession, makes a “football move”, and fumbles the ball. With your implication all those fumbles would have to be ruled incompletions.
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Not at all. I am saying that a play begins with the snap and ends with the referees whistle. Possession and location of the ball are determined then. If the team that snapped the ball has possession at the whistle, then down and distance to line to gain are based on the situation at the snap. (next down, line to gain if the dead ball spot is not beyond the line to gain). If the defense has possession at the whistle, then that team has the ball with first down etc.

In your scenario, under my theoretical rule, the defense would have possession at the spot the play was whistled dead.

In a more analogous situation, if a defender intercepts a pass, makes one or more football moves, then is tackled and fumbles and the team originally on offense recovers, the dead ball spot with respect to the line to gain at the start of the play would control whether or not it was a first down. If the spot was not past the line to gain, then it would be the next down.

Example: Team A has the ball 2nd down, 7 yards to go at their own 30. Defender from team B intercepts at the 50, runs, is tackled and fumbles. Team A recovers said fumble at their 35 yard line. Under my hypothetical rule, team A would the ball with third down and two yards to go.

Alternatively if the fumble recovery and ensuing dead ball spot was the 40 yard line, team A would have first down there.

Bottom line, I am not in favor of declaring "change of possession has occurred" until the whistle declaring end of play has sounded.
 
The rule is fine as it is. It makes sense (possession change resets the first down marker for either team)
 
Deaconblue said:
Not at all. I am saying that a play begins with the snap and ends with the referees whistle. Possession and location of the ball are determined then. If the team that snapped the ball has possession at the whistle, then down and distance to line to gain are based on the situation at the snap. (next down, line to gain if the dead ball spot is not beyond the line to gain). If the defense has possession at the whistle, then that team has the ball with first down etc.

In your scenario, under my theoretical rule, the defense would have possession at the spot the play was whistled dead.

In a more analogous situation, if a defender intercepts a pass, makes one or more football moves, then is tackled and fumbles and the team originally on offense recovers, the dead ball spot with respect to the line to gain at the start of the play would control whether or not it was a first down. If the spot was not past the line to gain, then it would be the next down.

Example: Team A has the ball 2nd down, 7 yards to go at their own 30. Defender from team B intercepts at the 50, runs, is tackled and fumbles. Team A recovers said fumble at their 35 yard line. Under my hypothetical rule, team A would the ball with third down and two yards to go.

Alternatively if the fumble recovery and ensuing dead ball spot was the 40 yard line, team A would have first down there.

Bottom line, I am not in favor of declaring "change of possession has occurred" until the whistle declaring end of play has sounded.
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So if we had picked up the fumble on 2nd down advanced it to the 30, been hit and fumbled it out of bounds, then BC should have the ball there 3rd down?
 
ChrisL68 said:
So if we had picked up the fumble on 2nd down advanced it to the 30, been hit and fumbled it out of bounds, then BC should have the ball there 3rd down?
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Well in that case it would still be our ball. But your point is made that it isn’t fair to advance the ball 30 yards and fumble back to offense and the offense be 3rd down and 75.
 
More than unfair, it’s non-sensical. Once possession changes, the previous set of down are over and done with. A possession
can be two steps or 20 plays, either way it’s a new set of downs.
 
Deaconblue said:
In a more analogous situation, if a defender intercepts a pass, makes one or more football moves, then is tackled and fumbles and the team originally on offense recovers, the dead ball spot with respect to the line to gain at the start of the play would control whether or not it was a first down.
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If a ball is intercepted and the intercepting team fumbles, whoever ultimately gains possession gets a new set of downs at whatever spot the ball is blown dead, and the previous set of downs wouldn’t be relevant. When team possession of the ball changes there is a new set of downs at a new LOS, anything else would defy the rules. Whistles don’t matter at all, the refs throw a flag whenever possession changes with a live ball
 
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