Official 2018 NBA Offseason Thread: the preseason cometh

[Pilchard]

This discussion speaks to the fact that Round 2 of this year's playoffs have not been competitive. Jordan vs. James feels like a July discussion.

How does everyone see the rest of the playoffs going?

Celtics/Cavs should be a good series, but feels like either of GSW/HOU would beat the EC winner in 5.

Having watched most of the playoffs thus far, I still don't see how HOU beats GSW. GSW just seems to have too many weapons on offense, while HOU needs Harden to be filthy every night. Also, Harden & Paul both seem to have more than their fair share of shitty games come playoff time.

Give me:
Celtics in 7
Warriors in 6

NBA Finals: Warriors in 5

These projections reflect the conventional wisdom (maybe, the Cavs/Celtics will be a pick), but then again, a little more than a week ago, NO ONE thought the Celtics would be up 3-0 on the Sixers, and Cavs were an underdog to the Raptors (and NO ONE was predicting a Cavs sweep, after they barely survived the Pacers); so, will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

 

[RJKarl]

There's no way CP is going to agree to playing for anything but max after negotiating the CBA

Yep, same with Lebron.

 

[DeacDaddy]

Agree that this is almost impossible to adjudicate given all the variables at play. But as one poster noted, if you had to pick one player to go win one game and (I’ll add) the fate of the world rested on its outcome, MJ’s is the number I’d dial. So I ultimately don’t know how I could call anyone else the GOAT.

Hopefully the aliens allow Bron to join MJ’s team and we’ll all be ok.

 

[JManslow]

Agree that this is almost impossible to adjudicate given all the variables at play. But as one poster noted, if you had to pick one player to go win one game and (I’ll add) the fate of the world rested on its outcome, MJ’s is the number I’d dial. So I ultimately don’t know how I could call anyone else the GOAT.

Hopefully the aliens allow Bron to join MJ’s team and we’ll all be ok.

But if you were going to build a team you’d have to pick Lebron first in a fantasy draft. With MJ, you have the best SG of all time, with LeBron, you have someone can play four positions at an elite level. He gives teams so much flexibility.

 

[PhDeac]

So let's sum up the arguments.

Pro-Jordan: Lebron is a great player and probably #2 of all time. He could become the GOAT if he continues his greatness into his mid-30s.
Pro-Lebron: Jordan was only great because he played with maybe 40 athletes in a weak league.

 

[DeacsATS]

These projections reflect the conventional wisdom (maybe, the Cavs/Celtics will be a pick), but then again, a little more than a week ago, NO ONE thought the Celtics would be up 3-0 on the Sixers, and Cavs were an underdog to the Raptors (and NO ONE was predicting a Cavs sweep, after they barely survived the Pacers); so, will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

Honestly, no outcome in Cavs/Celtics would surprise me. Lebron could go nuts and the squad of Celtic role players could hit a wall. Or the Celtics D could stymie everyone other than James and Boston cruises.

Have to say I am more impressed w/ what the Cavs are doing in round 2 than the Celtics. Boston won 2 games at home, then stole one on the road... If the 76ers pull out game 3, they are probably still favored to win the series. The Cavs went into Toronto and won the first 2... The #1 seed Raptors have completely unraveled. The EC is still Lebron's to lose.

I hope I am wrong about GSW/HOU... Wouldn't surprise me to see zero competitive games in that series. I don't mean a GSW sweep, I just mean every game decided by 10+ points. Game 1 in that series is huge... If GSW comes out and beats HOU in HOU, that is going to be a tough hole to climb out of.

 

[DeacsATS]

So let's sum up the arguments.

Pro-Jordan: Lebron is a great player and probably #2 of all time. He could become the GOAT if he continues his greatness into his mid-30s.
Pro-Lebron: Jordan was only great because he played with maybe 40 athletes in a weak league.

Ha! I love how you manage to completely dismiss the other side of every argument, no matter the topic.

FWIW, I actually agree with you on this one, but I don't think that's the argument against Jordan.

 

[PhDeac]

That's the argument I've seen aside from people pointing out their similar mediocre 3-point shooting. Feel free to quote what I've missed.

 

[tiltdeac]

That's the argument I've seen aside from people pointing out their similar mediocre 3-point shooting. Feel free to quote what I've missed.

I mean they aren't similarly mediocre. Jordan was a terrible 3 pt shooter, which is why he hardly took any outside of the short line seasons. Lebron was bad early in his career, but has been above average for like 7 seasons now on way more attempts. It's why his eFG% is so much better than Jordan's.

 

[RedSoxFaithful]

So let's sum up the arguments.

Pro-Jordan: Lebron is a great player and probably #2 of all time. He could become the GOAT if he continues his greatness into his mid-30s.
Pro-Lebron: Jordan was only great because he played with maybe 40 athletes in a weak league.

well that's not disingenuous at all

 

[Ayo]

classic ph over the last few pages

 

[PhDeac]

well that's not disingenuous at all

Correct what I got wrong.

 

[netflixnchildres]

LeBron is GOAT if he can win with this year's Cavs over the Rockets or the Warriors. No chip this year, no GOAT status. Metrics aside both Jordan and Kobe had a season where they "willed" a lesser team to the promise land. LeBron has always won with a talented big 3, but if he can beat a star team from the West with the guys he has now he deserves it. That being said, I doubt he wins it this year.

 

[RedSoxFaithful]

yeah, the implication that "pro-LeBron" arguments wouldn't immediately and unanimously agree that Jordan is #2 definitely indicates that you're interested in arguing in good faith

 

[PhDeac]

classic ph over the last few pages

Sadly it's classic for people to make weak arguments, complain when I show them how dumb their argument is, claim they made a different argument, then fail to produce evidence to support it.

See below. Feel free to point out what I missed.

I'm not huge into comparing eras because the level of play has advanced so far over the last 20 yrs. That said, it's Lebron > MJ pretty clearly for me.

No it doesn’t. It just means there are more teams. Much more talent, enough to spread across the greater number of teams.

And to flip ph’s question on Jordan, who were the great eastern conference players those bulls were beating? Ewing? Reggie Miller? Old Isaih Thomas?

I'm admittedly too young to have watched Jordan in his prime, but watching old clips, my God the talent across the league sucked back then.

Yeah, Jordan was being guarded by guys who couldn’t lock down a GLeaguer now. Watch those clips from the 90s, their were like 40 elite athletes in the league then compared to 200 now.

Yeah, Lebron basically gets officiated like Shaq. He gets handchecked and bumped plenty without getting the calls that Harden gets.

I’m sure Lebron would be absolutely petrified of going into the paint against centers who weighed less than him.

I think people are nostalgic about MJ and haven't re-watched many of his big playoff games lately. I recently watched Bulls/Pacers G7 from '98 and the Bulls won because they got like 300 offensive rebounds. But Jordan played poorly and the players/game were just super slow.

MJ is awesome and is clearly the 2nd best player ever for me but he just isn't as good as Lebron for me when I watch.

People always mention the hand check thing but never the change in the illegal defense rules. Being able to load up the strong side Thibodeau style against Jordan would have been more helpful than hand checking, especially since he couldn't shoot 3s at all (32% for his career, 24% (!) if you take out the 3 years when the NBA had went to the shorter 3 point line).

So let's sum up the arguments.

Pro-Jordan: Lebron is a great player and probably #2 of all time. He could become the GOAT if he continues his greatness into his mid-30s.
Pro-Lebron: Jordan was only great because he played with maybe 40 athletes in a weak league.

That's the argument I've seen aside from people pointing out their similar mediocre 3-point shooting. Feel free to quote what I've missed.

 

[RJKarl]

When did MJ EVER win without another Hall Famer on his team?

When did ever win without at least one other superstar on his team? Don't say the Pau years.

Neither of them ever got close with a team like Lebron's first team or as weak a team as this year's Cavs.

 

[PhDeac]

yeah, the implication that "pro-LeBron" arguments wouldn't immediately and unanimously agree that Jordan is #2 definitely indicates that you're interested in arguing in good faith

Who said that? The arguments against Jordan are based on his era not skills and wins. See above. It's definitely not clear that the Lebron crowd has Jordan as a clear #2, especially because it's not clear what criteria you all are using besides feels.

 

[RChildress107]

LeBron is GOAT if he can win with this year's Cavs over the Rockets or the Warriors. No chip this year, no GOAT status. Metrics aside both Jordan and Kobe had a season where they "willed" a lesser team to the promise land. LeBron has always won with a talented big 3, but if he can beat a star team from the West with the guys he has now he deserves it. That being said, I doubt he wins it this year.

Wut?

 

[Deacfreak07]

LeBron is GOAT if he can win with this year's Cavs over the Rockets or the Warriors. No chip this year, no GOAT status. Metrics aside both Jordan and Kobe had a season where they "willed" a lesser team to the promise land. LeBron has always won with a talented big 3, but if he can beat a star team from the West with the guys he has now he deserves it. That being said, I doubt he wins it this year.

do what now?

 

[PhDeac]

LeBron is GOAT if he can win with this year's Cavs over the Rockets or the Warriors. No chip this year, no GOAT status. Metrics aside both Jordan and Kobe had a season where they "willed" a lesser team to the promise land. LeBron has always won with a talented big 3, but if he can beat a star team from the West with the guys he has now he deserves it. That being said, I doubt he wins it this year.