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PA Voter ID law ruled unconstitutional

WFFaithful said:
At least we've got over the idea that everybody has an ID card because you can't live without them and moved on to the lazy/bootstraps argument.
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Have we? Honest question: how many people do you know that are eligible to vote and don't have a government issued i.d.? I'd like a reply with a specific number if you don't mind. I honestly believe that we'll never encounter a more made-up problem than adults without government i.d. in 2014.

It's not that I don't appreciate your recent conversion to sensitivity to government overreach and the undue burdens in can place on us. If it's true that the real reason to your objections to getting a free i.d. card every ten years is indeed that doing so is an undue burden for government to ask of its citizens, what do you make of the burden of paying for thousands of dollars (not free by any measure) for health insurance every year (not just every decade)? If we're really concerned about the burdens of government overreach, let's work big to small (or if not, then let's just stick to arguments that aren't disingenuous. Either way.)
 
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jhmd2000 said:
Nice of you to stop your quotation short of the part where they still have to verify your identity using publicly available databases. Don't worry, I completed the part you intentionally left out.

Next time be more honest.
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A publicly available database like a voter roll?

If that's good enough for the TSA, why isn't it good enough for voting?
 
jhmd2000 said:
Have we? Honest question: how many people do you know that are eligible to vote and don't have a government issued i.d.? I'd like a reply with a specific number if you don't mind. Otherwise, I'm going to have a hard time worrying about this made up problem.

It's not that I don't appreciate your recent conversion to sensitivity to government overreach and the undue burdens in can place on us. If it's true that the real reason to your objections to getting a free i.d. card every ten years is indeed that doing so is an undue burden for government to ask of its citizens, what do you make of the burden of paying for thousands of dollars (not free by any measure) for health insurance every year (not just every decade)? If we're really concerned about the burdens of government overreach, let's work big to small (or if not, then let's just stick to arguments that aren't disingenuous. Either way.)
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How many poor rural people do you expect posters on an Internet message board devoted to an expensive private school hang out with in a regular basis?

Just because it doesn't happen to your buddies doesn't mean it doesn't happen to anybody
 
BeachBumDeac said:
A publicly available database like a voter roll?

If that's good enough for the TSA, why isn't it good enough for voting?
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I doubt that it is, since the only approved forms of i.d. on the TSA pages you listed (ETA: look like they) are all photo ids. Here's the list:

Acceptable IDs include:
U.S. passport
U.S. passport card
DHS "Trusted Traveler" cards (Global Entry, NEXUS, SENTRI, FAST)
U.S. Military ID (active duty or retired military and their dependents, and DOD civilians)
Permanent Resident Card
Border Crossing Card
DHS-designated enhanced driver's license
Driver's Licenses or other state photo identity cards issued by Department of Motor Vehicles (or equivalent)
Native American Tribal Photo ID
HSPD-12 PIV Card
An airline or airport-issued ID (if issued under a TSA-approved security plan)
A foreign government-issued passport
Canadian provincial driver's license or Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) card
Transportation Worker Identification Credential (TWIC)
Non-US/Canadian citizens are not required to carry their passports if they have documents issued by the U.S. government such as Permanent Resident Cards. Those who do not should be carrying their passports while visiting the U.S.
 
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BeachBumDeac said:
How many poor rural people do you expect posters on an Internet message board devoted to an expensive private school hang out with in a regular basis?

Just because it doesn't happen to your buddies doesn't mean it doesn't happen to anybody
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Clearly me and my fellow right wingers are out to disenfranchise the farm vote. It's time to stamp out that hotbed of progressivism in west Texas. You've got me.

My 93 year old great uncle---a lifelong farmer from the mountains of North Carolina---has a Facebook account. He could post on this message board if he wanted to, and he could renew online the photo i.d. he's had for twice as long as the 30 year olds who would otherwise try to look down on him. It turns out he can walk and talk, too. Will wonders never cease?

I'm looking for a shred of authentic, anecdotal evidence that this is a problem in any regard, let alone one worthy of all this hue and cry.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Clearly me and my fellow right wingers are out to disenfranchise the farm vote. It's time to stamp out that hotbed of progressivism in west Texas. You've got me.

My 93 year old great uncle---a lifelong farmer from the mountains of North Carolina---has a Facebook account. He could post on this message board if he wanted to, and he could renew online the photo i.d. he's had for twice as long as the 30 year olds who would otherwise try to look down on him. It turns out he can walk and talk, too. Will wonders never cease?

I'm looking for a shred of authentic, anecdotal evidence that this is a problem in any regard, let alone one worthy of all this hue and cry.
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Oh right, I forgot that anecdotal evidence is much more reliable than statistical evidence. We definitely need those anecdotes in order to prove our point.

And your 93 year old great uncle, with a computer and internet access at home, is DEFINITELY representative of everybody in a rural area across the country. Man, your anecdotal evidence just convinced me.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I doubt that it is, since the only approved forms of i.d. on the TSA pages you listed are photo ids. Here's the list:

Acceptable IDs include:
U.S. passport
U.S. passport card
DHS "Trusted Traveler" cards (Global Entry, NEXUS, SENTRI, FAST)
U.S. Military ID (active duty or retired military and their dependents, and DOD civilians)
Permanent Resident Card
Border Crossing Card
DHS-designated enhanced driver's license
Driver's Licenses or other state photo identity cards issued by Department of Motor Vehicles (or equivalent)
Native American Tribal Photo ID
HSPD-12 PIV Card
An airline or airport-issued ID (if issued under a TSA-approved security plan)
A foreign government-issued passport
Canadian provincial driver's license or Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) card
Transportation Worker Identification Credential (TWIC)
Non-US/Canadian citizens are not required to carry their passports if they have documents issued by the U.S. government such as Permanent Resident Cards. Those who do not should be carrying their passports while visiting the U.S.
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You realize those are the IDs you CAN show, and if you don't have one, then you have to pass extra screening questions, right?

Here's another link for you:

http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/flying-without-a-photo-id/

The special T.S.A. agent had me sign a form, allowing the agency to verify my identity. He asked me if I had any other form of identification (I didn’t), or if my husband had anything in his wallet that had my name on it. (Again, no.) I did have a checkbook, bearing checks that had both my name and my husband’s, so I handed that over for him to examine. Then, he called someone else on his phone, and asked me some questions — things like my previous addresses and my date of birth. It reminded me of the online verification process you go through when opening a bank account or obtaining your credit report.
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The website you linked used the word "required." Having never flown without one in my life, the plain meaning of that term corroborated my own personal experience. The point is a simple one: they verify your identity b/c it makes good sense to do so. They prefer the far more efficient means that is already in place of a government issued i.d. If you have the occasional incident where someone makes a good faith mistake, they can and should have alternate procedures in place (which, like voting a provisional ballot, seem to work fine).

Does that mean we should make the exception for the occasional absent-minded flyer (note: she had one, but she made an honest mistake) the rule for everybody? I don't think so.

Do you really feel that getting an id is an undue burden imposed by the government? If so, how does it compare to the burden of the individual mandate? Do you not see the inconsistency in opposing the former but not the latter, on the grounds of undue burden?
 
jhmd2000 said:
Clearly me and my fellow right wingers are out to disenfranchise the farm vote. It's time to stamp out that hotbed of progressivism in west Texas. You've got me.

My 93 year old great uncle---a lifelong farmer from the mountains of North Carolina---has a Facebook account. He could post on this message board if he wanted to, and he could renew online the photo i.d. he's had for twice as long as the 30 year olds who would otherwise try to look down on him. It turns out he can walk and talk, too. Will wonders never cease?

I'm looking for a shred of authentic, anecdotal evidence that this is a problem in any regard, let alone one worthy of all this hue and cry.
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now 30 yr olds are the whippersnappers?
 
ImTheCaptain said:
now 30 yr olds are the whippersnappers?
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I'm inclined to think that if an alleged problem has been solved for twice as long a time period as the life span as the person worried about it, then it confirms that we're dealing with the no-SAT policy objection of the year.
 
With our current DMV infrastructure in rural areas, getting an ID is an undue burden on a lot of people. The judge agrees
 
BeachBumDeac said:
With our current DMV infrastructure in rural areas, getting an ID is an undue burden on a lot of people. The judge agrees
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Georgia has a lot of rural areas, too, but the State Supreme Court apparently disagrees about the "undue burden". Georgia's voter ID law was upheld 6-1 when it was challenged in 2011.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
With our current DMV infrastructure in rural areas, getting an ID is an undue burden on a lot of people. The judge agrees
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The opinion was written by a Judge whose name matches that of a good friend of mine's father, who happens to live in Pennsylvania. I'm going to have to see if his old man is a judge. Going to look into that this afternoon.

The statistical modeling produced an estimated half million people that don't currently have an i.d. Nobody with a name, of course, but an extrapolation of people that might not currently have an i.d. I lack the lack of faith in humanity required to believe that they couldn't get one with enough notice, even if in fact they don't currently have them.

Interestingly, that number comes from comparing the voter rolls ("SUREDATABASE") against the PDOT registry, and looks for missing names. I wonder which one is more accurate (that is, the one they maintain, or the one they don't)? You could easily be on the voter rolls, and later moved to another state or decided to die without telling your local board of elections, and the DOT catch it (since they actually maintain that list). I'm willing to wager that the NC DMV database is substantially more accurate than its voter rolls.

The newfound objection to government overreach (and convenient reversal in the case of the much more profound overreach of the individual mandate) seems a bit too flimsy to be plausible. Your arguments don't seem to line up, issue to issue.
 
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BeachBumDeac said:
Oh right, I forgot that anecdotal evidence is much more reliable than statistical evidence. We definitely need those anecdotes in order to prove our point.

And your 93 year old great uncle, with a computer and internet access at home, is DEFINITELY representative of everybody in a rural area across the country. Man, your anecdotal evidence just convinced me.
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Ah yes, our old friend statistics. Using statistics, what percentage of your family lacks a government issued i.d.? Is it a number more than 0%? If none, how about your co-workers?

Friends?

Still nothing, I'm guessing. Easy on that windmill, Don.
 
jhmd2000 said:
I'm inclined to think that if an alleged problem has been solved for twice as long a time period as the life span as the person worried about it, then it confirms that we're dealing with the no-SAT policy objection of the year.
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30 yr olds had to take the SAT to get into wake.

you just got SAT'd
 
jhmd2000 said:
Ah yes, our old friend statistics. Using statistics, what percentage of your family lacks a government issued i.d.? Is it a number more than 0%? If none, how about your co-workers?

Friends?

Still nothing, I'm guessing. Easy on that windmill, Don.
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HAHA.

I'm more convinced than ever that jhmd is a parody. If he is, he's the best we've ever had.
 
bigdoublezero said:
agreed. #hangit
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Let me guess. You are moved to tears by the burden of a free id card every 120 months, but tens of thousands of dollars of mandatory health care under penalty of law doesn't trouble you?
 
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