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The Time Has Come: #ForbesIN or #ForbesOUT

Should forbes be the 24/25 Demon Deacon Basketball Coach?

  • #ForbesIN

    Votes: 123 74.5%

  • #ForbesOUT

    Votes: 19 11.5%

  • #FreeRJKarl

    Votes: 23 13.9%
  • Total voters
    165
I’m still #Forbesin but agree that we need to make the tournament next year. Forbes out people are not crazy. Other than me, most people seem to think we were justified in firing Dino for not getting enough out of talent. This is at least as bad. This year has been an abomination at the finish and that’s what matters. That said, I’m still somewhat hopeful because of the nucleus that we hopefully return and if Mit and the big boosters love Forbes, they should pony up some serious NIL to overcome our deficits at PG and with depth generally.
 
It is truly sad what Wellman did this program and fan base. [Redacted] and Manning were so bad for so long. It's left many to believe Forbes is the best we can ever hope for. We could taste the NCAA tournament after the Duke game. We're likely going to end with a 4 game losing streak and a 7-9 seed in the ACC tournament, which is politely, a disappointment, and really a season ending collapse. Maybe these are just part of the process we have to go through, but they feel like warning signs.

By all means, Forbes should be brought back next season ( so I guess I am ForbesIN). He's done more then enough to warrant that. I hope next year is the year we get over the hump. If we do not, I can not get on board with giving Forbes another year or two to get us dancing.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
I excluded the (many) seasons under Danny and Bz when we were outside the top 100. My takeaway from that is that, in three full seasons, Forbes has two years that roughly approximate peak performance from Dino and Manning, and are mid-level seasons for Skip and Odom. If those are mid-level seasons from Forbes, rather than his peak, I can live with that. Given that he accomplished it in his first and third full seasons, after walking into worse circumstances than I ever imagined possible for Wake basketball, I am skeptical that this represents his peak, but we’ll see.

That said, I sympathize with the feeling that ’22 and especially ‘24 have been less satisfying and more frustrating than similarly-ranked seasons. Our NIT title year, 2000, was the only other year we were in the 20’s or 30’s and missed the tournament, and we even won the ACC regular season one of those years. I get it. That sucks. The last three games have been miserable.

Is that because of some specific Forbes flaw that bolsters our KP while holding back our resume? I doubt it. He clearly has limitations as an in-game coach: halftime adjustments, reining in the hero ball, and maintaining defensive intensity when the shots aren’t falling all jump out at me. At the same time, he’s clearly not totally inept at the coaching/tactics/strategy side of things. He’s designed two effective offenses with two totally different groups of players with different skill sets.

I also don’t buy that he can’t beat good teams. Some nights you’ve got it, some nights you don’t, and most nights you’re in between. The way we played against Syracuse or UVA or VPI, we would have beaten virtually anyone in the country, unless it was a top-ten team bringing their A+ game. Duke did bring their A-game, and we beat them anyway. In a stronger ACC, those great performances would have been closer wins against impressive teams rather than runaways against nobodies. Randomness plays a far greater role in on-court results than people want to acknowledge in these debates.

Regardless of his in-game coaching, Forbes has clearly demonstrated an ability for spotting talent. I posted this a while ago, but Jeff Borzello on ESPN ranked Hunter Sallis #93 among transfers this year. Neither Miller nor Reid charted in the top 100 or among approximately 50 HM's. Last year, Borzello ranked Appleby #90 and Ituka #99. Carr wasn't in the top 100 or among the ~20 HM's. In 2021, none of our five transfers (Alondes, LaRavia, Walton, Sy, Monsanto) were in either the top 100 or the HM's. Given the choice between the two, I’ll take a talent accumulator like Forbes over an in-game tactician every single time. I don’t need to see Nikita Mescheriakov throwing the ball over the backboard ever again.

I suppose I also—and I promise this is winding down—take a dimmer view of our job than others. We last made the tournament when current high school seniors were 10-11 years old. We were last in the field of 64 when they were 3-4. We last made the Sweet Sixteen before they were born, last made the Final Four before some of their grandparents were born, and last won a title when…

The last time we hit the market with a somewhat attractive job, we hired a P6 coach with a 10-38 conference record. The next time, we got a guy who had one good 11-game stretch at Tulsa. The next time, we were the only game in town, and our candidates were Forbes, HOF Wes, Ryan Odom, and Pat Kelsey. I don’t know who exactly people are expecting us to hire this time around with P6 competition, but Dusty May ain’t walking through that door. I’m not interested in making the moRon move of firing a coach in a fit of pique and then flailing around with Donovan and Izzo before landing on my eighth choice.

Finally, where’s the money coming from? We just got raked over the coals for $15 million for Danny’s buyout. I don’t know the details of Forbes’s contract, and I hope that Currie wasn’t as foolish as his predecessor, but certainly there’s some buyout involved. Mit just forked over $5 million already, and, based on his post-dook comments, seems pretty happy with Forbes and may not be thrilled about financing another buyout and huge salary, which would further diminish our already-dim prospects for attracting a new coach. None of which reflects on Forbes’s ability, but you’d think most people around here would understand that nailing the fire doesn’t matter if you can’t stick the hire.

So, yeah, last night was miserable. I spent all day being depressed and muttering curses at Wake basketball. I’m also willing to be a little bit patient with trying to resurrect our program after where it’s been the last fourteen years.
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SUPERLIKE

Agree with pretty much all of this. The transfer ranking stuff is hilarious. I get it in year 1... No track record. Maybe even year 2, where you could say Alondes and Jake (the previous year) were lucky outliers. By the last offseason, you'd think the media would catch on... Especially when Sallis and Reid were big time recruits out of HS.

As an aside, like last offseason, I expect Forbes to keep his interest in specific players a well-guarded secret. We probably won't hear about targets until they are on campus for a visit. While the media may be slow to catch on to the staff's eye for talent, I guarantee coaching peers are not.
 
awakegirl said:
I’m still #Forbesin but agree that we need to make the tournament next year. Forbes out people are not crazy. Other than me, most people seem to think we were justified in firing Dino for not getting enough out of talent. This is at least as bad. This year has been an abomination at the finish and that’s what matters. That said, I’m still somewhat hopeful because of the nucleus that we hopefully return and if Mit and the big boosters love Forbes, they should pony up some serious NIL to overcome our deficits at PG and with depth generally.
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Wellman should have given Dino one more year. Or, he should have made a good hire after Dino. It became clear that Dino would not succeed long-term to most of us, but firing him after 2 straight NCAA appearances, never mind the circumstances during which he took over, was not a good look. One more year would have yielded poor results, cemented the decision within the fanbase and the press, and given Wellman a better starting point. Then again, the [Redacted] hire ruined everything no matter what.
 
DeacsATS said:
SUPERLIKE

Agree with pretty much all of this. The transfer ranking stuff is hilarious. I get it in year 1... No track record. Maybe even year 2, where you could say Alondes and Jake (the previous year) were lucky outliers. By the last offseason, you'd think the media would catch on... Especially when Sallis and Reid were big time recruits out of HS.

As an aside, like last offseason, I expect Forbes to keep his interest in specific players a well-guarded secret. We probably won't hear about targets until they are on campus for a visit. While the media may be slow to catch on to the staff's eye for talent, I guarantee coaching peers are not.
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Eh. Are the transfer rankings really that wrong? None of those guys got us to the tournament, which is kind of the point for college players coming into a college team. You can criticize them as poor NBA draft or G-league tryout reflections, but I don't think that is what they are intended to be.
 
The good thing is no one gives a shit what any of us think this year.

I can't wait to see how Forbes attacks the portal this year, to fill in some key contributors and HOPEFULLY fill in a bench. 9 or 10 playable guys makes the difference in 18 wins and 22 wins
 
Without any first hand knowledge, just being around for a long time, I think there were extenuating circumstances with Dino. I was surprised by the move, he got us to #1, if i remember correctly, but we again failed at end of season. the hiring of Bzz was a dumpster fire move by Wellman...8-24 after b2b 20 win seasons and a solid (at the time) recruiting class coming in.
 
warak said:
Without any first hand knowledge, just being around for a long time, I think there were extenuating circumstances with Dino. I was surprised by the move, he got us to #1, if i remember correctly, but we again failed at end of season. the hiring of Bzz was a dumpster fire move by Wellman...8-24 after b2b 20 win seasons and a solid (at the time) recruiting class coming in.
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hey now!

to be fair, Wellman warned us all that his hire might not "win the press conference".


Fuck Ron Wellman. Then. Now. Forever.
 
deacdixieboy said:
I don’t see any proof that he is a better coach than Dino. 2 NCAAT appearances in 3 years compared to 0 in 4 years.
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These two situations are so comically incomparable that you're either being intentionally obtuse or unfairly disingenious in order to shit on Forbes.

There's plenty to be critical of re Forbes, but Dino inherited a team that already had 3 players on it who have played a combined 41 NBA seasons and that's before adding on a 2008 class with THREE five-star recruits who were already in-hand for him. Forbes was handed a program that was torpedoed by a socially inept freak and then spray farted on by a dude more interested in tweeting soap ads.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Eh. Are the transfer rankings really that wrong? None of those guys got us to the tournament, which is kind of the point for college players coming into a college team. You can criticize them as poor NBA draft or G-league tryout reflections, but I don't think that is what they are intended to be.
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yes
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Eh. Are the transfer rankings really that wrong? None of those guys got us to the tournament, which is kind of the point for college players coming into a college team. You can criticize them as poor NBA draft or G-league tryout reflections, but I don't think that is what they are intended to be.
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Yes, the rankings are pretty much terrible. I won't dig into why because I'm not sure you'll accept any analysis in good faith and I don't want to waste my time.

If you think Hunter Sallis is the 93rd best transfer in the country this season, then we're never going to agree on anything.
 
deacz said:
Wellman should have given Dino one more year. Or, he should have made a good hire after Dino. It became clear that Dino would not succeed long-term to most of us, but firing him after 2 straight NCAA appearances, never mind the circumstances during which he took over, was not a good look. One more year would have yielded poor results, cemented the decision within the fanbase and the press, and given Wellman a better starting point. Then again, the [Redacted] hire ruined everything no matter what.
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Given everything that has come to light at Louisville over the past two years, I am very surprised that there are still so many people here that still think Dino Gaudio should've been here one second longer.

I'm sure Chris Mack would have a different sentiment now, than he did in 2018.
 
The school that retained Buzz and Danny Manning wants to fire the guy who's wife had a stroke and who beat Duke, UNC and Virginia using players he brought in after being hired during the Pandemic (because he lost on a horrible no-call by Teddy Valentine)?

Rancid takes like this that prove that this board not only needs RJ Karl back, but deserves it. #ForbesIN #FreeRJ
 
I'm as disappointed as anyone in what's transpired in the last week, but I like and appreciate Forbes. Dude brought us out of 10 years of not just sucking, but complete apathy. We have a coach with a personality who fans, players, players' parents, and the media like, and who has done fun stuff like shoot the 11 pm "get in your seats" baseball video. Skip's the only other coach we've had who would have done that. He's got me and my Wake alums watching every Wake basketball game again after a decade of not even knowing there was a game happening that day.

Moreover, you have to extend grace to a guy who is performing his job and simultaneously tending to his very ill wife. That's true in any profession. I can't imagine how challenging this past year has been for him.

Personally, I'm interested to see what we're able to do next year after hopefully Forbes' family issues are in a better place and we (finally) have a bit more roster continuity. If we can't get it done next year, I will be concerned.
 
Is this all about trying to get Pat Kelsey at Charleston or are there other coaches you would want?
 
I'm not sure why we are even discussing this. Pilch told us that Forbes is here for 3-4 more years anyway, short of Forbes winning 8 games a year.

Personally, I have changed my position somewhat. I mentioned earlier that I thought no NCAATs in 4 years was a breaking point for me (although I also think I said that I didn't expect Wake to get rid of him after year 4). But I do think the personal circumstances argue in favor of another year no matter what happens the last couple of games. If he doesn't make the tournament next year, then that should be the end of Forbes' tenure.

If it turns out we cannot get rid of Forbes because we yet again provided a long-term extension to a coach before him proving he was worth it (and even without making the NCAAT like Manning did), we need a new AD.
 
Frosty said:
These two situations are so comically incomparable that you're either being intentionally obtuse or unfairly disingenious in order to shit on Forbes.

There's plenty to be critical of re Forbes, but Dino inherited a team that already had 3 players on it who have played a combined 41 NBA seasons and that's before adding on a 2008 class with THREE five-star recruits who were already in-hand for him. Forbes was handed a program that was torpedoed by a socially inept freak and then spray farted on by a dude more interested in tweeting soap ads.
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It’s unfair to not give Dino any credit for those guys being on the team. He was on the staff.
 
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